From judic@snyside.sunnyside.com Sun Mar 21 23:58:46 1993 Received: from snyside.sunnyside.com by fido.wps.com (5.67/1.34) id AA00302; Sun, 21 Mar 93 23:58:39 -0800 Received: from [192.147.248.83] (quark.sunnyside.com) by snyside.sunnyside.com with SMTP id AA00515 (5.65c8/IDA-1.4.4 for ); Sun, 21 Mar 1993 23:58:30 -0800 Date: Sun, 21 Mar 1993 23:58:30 -0800 Message-Id: <199303220758.AA00515@snyside.sunnyside.com> To: tomj@fido.wps.com, pozar@toad.com, gnu@toad.com, well!coyote From: judic@sunnyside.com (Judi Clark) X-Sender: judic@snyside.sunnyside.com Subject: ToasterNet conference Status: OR Perhaps you've heard of Communet, a listserv with heavy traffic, talk about all the little nets cropping up all over. There was brief mention and interest expressed about some of the greater bay area groups being interested in having a meeting to talk about what's going on. After a few suggestions, one of the people suggested this. >I'd like to see the following at a meeting: > >1. case histories - stories of existing nets >2. presentation by the Free-Net people >3. legal issues, the "legal issues for sysops" tutorial from > CPF conf in SF would be great >4. How to link elected reps to the net >5. update on Clinton admin plans to put more data online, the new > net backbone, etc etc. >6. presentation by Pavel Curtis (of Xerox Parc who also did a > talk at DIAC in Berkeley last year) on text based virtual realities > (MUDs) in social networks. >7. mentoring and confronting abuse and flame wars: the quest for a good > signal to noise ratio in discussions >8. organizational models >9. a panel discussion of "who pays" would be great > Anyone interested in this idea? Is it worth persuing? I can organize something if you help with speakers, suggestions, format options... things that would make the meeting of greatest benefit and interest. judi From gnu@cygnus.com Mon Mar 22 07:10:17 1993 Received: from relay1.UU.NET by fido.wps.com (5.67/1.34) id AA00517; Mon, 22 Mar 93 07:10:12 -0800 Received: from cygnus.com by relay1.UU.NET with SMTP (5.61/UUNET-internet-primary) id AA23692; Mon, 22 Mar 93 10:10:09 -0500 Received: from localhost.cygnus.com by cygnus.com (4.1/SMI-4.1) id AA18424; Mon, 22 Mar 93 07:10:58 PST Message-Id: <9303221510.AA18424@cygnus.com> To: tomj@fido.wps.com Subject: [Richard Threadgill: Ambiguity in TLG-Alternet relationship] Date: Mon, 22 Mar 93 07:10:57 -0800 From: gnu@cygnus.com Status: OR Here's another possible carrier... John ------- Forwarded Message Date: Tue, 23 Feb 93 11:28:20 -0800 From: Richard Threadgill Message-Id: <9302231928.AA04881@apple.com> To: gnu@cygnus.com Subject: Ambiguity in TLG-Alternet relationship Cc: dt@apple.com By the bye, leme again take this opportunity to mention that CerfNet has both very competitive pricing with Alternet and is *much* friendlier to having customers who resell their service downstream (or at the very least, they have been each time I've talked to them about it, the most recent of which was at Interop in November). I believe their uptime records are also *much* better... RichardT ------- End of Forwarded Message From toaster-owner@m2xenix.psg.com Mon Mar 22 09:46:42 1993 Received: from m2xenix.psg.com by fido.wps.com (5.67/1.34) id AA00545; Mon, 22 Mar 93 09:46:38 -0800 Received: by m2xenix.psg.com (/\==/\ Smail3.1.25.1 #25.4) id ; Mon, 22 Mar 93 08:18 PST Return-Path: Received: by m2xenix.psg.com (/\==/\ Smail3.1.25.1 #25.4) id ; Mon, 22 Mar 93 08:18 PST Received: from cygnus.com by relay1.UU.NET with SMTP (5.61/UUNET-internet-primary) id AA14049; Mon, 22 Mar 93 11:18:36 -0500 Received: from localhost.cygnus.com by cygnus.com (4.1/SMI-4.1) id AA20366; Mon, 22 Mar 93 08:19:29 PST Message-Id: <9303221619.AA20366@cygnus.com> To: jasmic!sechrest@CS.ORST.EDU (John Sechrest) Cc: toaster-list@psg.com (ToasterNet List), gnu@cygnus.com Subject: Re: Alternative Carriers In-Reply-To: Your message of "Sun, 21 Mar 93 21:23:09." <9303220523.AA00574@ jasmic.jasmic.com > Date: Mon, 22 Mar 93 08:19:28 -0800 From: gnu@cygnus.com Status: OR > The big thing holding us back is the capital costs. These have dropped by close to half in the last year. Livingston now offers a 56K router in the $2300 range, and a T1 router for a few hundred more. They are on the Internet and provide patches and new versions via FTP. They were responsive when we had initial trouble with their router, and it has a number of innovations (easy config from a Unix machine, no hooking up terminals to it). I am hoping for leased lines with ISDN interfaces, to provide the next jump down in capital costs. With each end of a 56K line costing $1000 to install (here in PacBell country), and each end requiring a $600 DSU/CSU, ISDN has to be cheaper. John From toaster-owner@m2xenix.psg.com Mon Mar 22 12:27:12 1993 Received: from m2xenix.psg.com by fido.wps.com (5.67/1.34) id AA00582; Mon, 22 Mar 93 12:27:02 -0800 Received: by m2xenix.psg.com (/\==/\ Smail3.1.25.1 #25.4) id ; Mon, 22 Mar 93 12:19 PST Return-Path: Received: by m2xenix.psg.com (/\==/\ Smail3.1.25.1 #25.4) id ; Mon, 22 Mar 93 12:19 PST Received: by fido.wps.com (5.67/1.34) id AA00570; Mon, 22 Mar 93 12:19:13 -0800 From: tomj@fido.wps.com (Tom Jennings) Message-Id: <9303222019.AA00570@fido.wps.com> Subject: A slight umm.. Alter-cation... To: toaster@psg.com (toasternet mailing list) Date: Mon, 22 Mar 1993 12:19:12 -0800 (PST) X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL21] Content-Type: text Content-Length: 2877 Status: OR Well, here's the statii of Alternet/Little Garden relations these days... To: rick@uunet.uu.net, gnu@cygnus.com Cc: tomj@fido.wps.com Subject: Alternet service to TLG Date: Mon, 15 Mar 93 13:40:55 -0800 From: gnu@cygnus.com Rick, We've both been busy. I still want to resolve this. In the last two weeks we have identified two competing IP networks to which we could connect without "non competition" or "no forwarding other peoples' traffic" restrictions (either on paper or "understood"). One of them, so far, has agreed to equally good protection against having our traffic censored (only after a judge rules against it). We are meeting next week with one of them. Our preference would be to continue to work with you. It's easier than switching, you give good service, and our interests align in other areas. But we have three or four potential subscribers waiting, pending resolution of our current disagreement (one is a 256K microwave link, one an extension to Santa Cruz, one a packet radio link that could be used by a variety of current and future TLG members, and the Wolfgang connection). I think your opposition to our signing up sites that "might consider buying direct Alternet service" is based on a misunderstanding. The misunderstanding is that by objecting to us competing with you, we will cease to compete with you. On the contrary, if you give us enough trouble or delay (and the amount you have given us is about two weeks from enough), we will stop feeding you money, feed it to another service provider, and will continue to compete with you. It's not that we particularly *desire* to compete with you. We're in a different market (little guys, lower reliability, more hassle, etc). In fact, I don't think Wolfgang is in your market, but you objected to us signing him up. And you worried a lot of the little guys on TLG by claiming that people on TLG can't give out free accounts to their friends, or charge people small amounts for access to their machine. These guys are on 14.4 lines behind a 56k line; they aren't going to make any discernable difference in your traffic stats, but you pissed them off anyway. If the only way that we can be your customer is to have a prickly relationship, then the best resolution is probably for us to change providers. If you are interested in resolving this issue, then call me (+1 415 903 1418) or send email. If not, all you have to do is delay; we will select another provider and let you know. John From: rick@uunet.uu.net (Rick Adams) Message-Id: <9303152213.AA13051@rodan.UU.NET> Subject: Re: Alternet service to TLG To: gnu@cygnus.com Date: Mon, 15 Mar 1993 17:13:40 -0500 (EST) Cc: rick@uunet.UU.NET, tomj@fido.wps.com Please select another provider. I wish you luck with your new endevor. -- Tom Jennings / tomj@fido.wps.com / World Power Systems / San Francisco CA From sl@wimsey.com Mon Mar 22 13:52:59 1993 Received: from van-bc.wimsey.com by fido.wps.com (5.67/1.34) id AA00612; Mon, 22 Mar 93 13:52:04 -0800 Received: by van-bc.wimsey.com (Smail3.1.28.1) id m0nauPC-00022yC; Mon, 22 Mar 93 13:51 PST Message-Id: From: sl@wimsey.com (Stuart Lynne) Subject: Re: A slight umm.. Alter-cation... To: tomj@fido.wps.com (Tom Jennings) Date: Mon, 22 Mar 1993 13:51:38 -0800 (PST) Cc: toaster@psg.com In-Reply-To: <9303222019.AA00570@fido.wps.com> from "Tom Jennings" at Mar 22, 93 12:19:12 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL20] Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Length: 1352 Status: OR Interesting what is happening elsewhere. The small co-operative networks are starting to blossom and carry some weight. Alternet's reaction is a bit disappointing. Alternet will have lost that revenue and a *lot* of goodwill. In very short order network providers who do not allow unrestricted use of the pipe will find them loosing business. After all routing packets is becoming *very* much a commodity business. Customers will simply switch to whatever provider allows them the freedom they want. Or alternatively they will simply buy a line directly to CIX and pop for $10,000 a year to join. In short, provide a good service, at a modest markup, with the least restrictions and you will have customers and continue to grow. At the point you start to have too many restrictions customers will move to alternative providers. At the point where your customers perceive too high a markup they will endeavour to setup their own network service. -- Stuart Lynne ......................... UNIX Facsimile Software Wimsey Information Technologies ................... moderator biz.sco.binaries uucp login:nuucp passwd:nuucp .................... ftp.wimsey.com:~ftp/ls-lR.Z PD Software for SCO UNIX .................... ftp.wimsey.com:~ftp/pub/wimseypd 604-936-8649(voice) 604-937-7718(fax) 604-939-4782(pep) 604-939-4756(v32b) From toaster-owner@m2xenix.psg.com Mon Mar 22 15:18:03 1993 Received: from m2xenix.psg.com by fido.wps.com (5.67/1.34) id AA00646; Mon, 22 Mar 93 15:17:55 -0800 Received: by m2xenix.psg.com (/\==/\ Smail3.1.25.1 #25.4) id ; Mon, 22 Mar 93 15:02 PST Return-Path: Received: by m2xenix.psg.com (/\==/\ Smail3.1.25.1 #25.4) id ; Mon, 22 Mar 93 15:02 PST Received: by garnet.msen.com (/\==/\ Smail3.1.25.1 #25.5) id ; Mon, 22 Mar 93 18:00 WET Message-Id: To: gnu@cygnus.com Cc: jasmic!sechrest@CS.ORST.EDU (John Sechrest), toaster-list@psg.com (ToasterNet List) Subject: Re: Alternative Carriers In-Reply-To: Your message of Mon, 22 Mar 93 08:19:28. <9303221619.AA20366@cygnus.com> Date: Mon, 22 Mar 93 18:00:38 EST From: Edward Vielmetti Status: OR These have dropped by close to half in the last year. Livingston now offers a 56K router in the $2300 range, and a T1 router for a few hundred more. They are on the Internet and provide patches and new versions via FTP. They were responsive when we had initial trouble with their router, and it has a number of innovations (easy config from a Unix machine, no hooking up terminals to it). We have 5 Livingston boxes in house here - 3 terminal servers and 2 56K routers - all in all I have been quite pleased with them. The other useful piece of hardware lurking on the horizon is a routers from the Morning Star folks, which is planned to have enough stuff in it to run 'gated' - thus allowing you to maintain a fully arbitrary and internet ready routing table etc. I am hoping for leased lines with ISDN interfaces, to provide the next jump down in capital costs. With each end of a 56K line costing $1000 to install (here in PacBell country), and each end requiring a $600 DSU/CSU, ISDN has to be cheaper. After we spent $1100 (urk) on the ISDN Centrex install, additional lines are virtually nothing. The ISDN equipment which appears again looming on the near term future is the Adtran "ISU 128" which offers 128K over 2 b channels and doesn't need an NT-1 to do its stuff. List is $1000 ea. Leslie Conway, +1 708 851 6699, at Adtran in Chicago. Edward Vielmetti, vice president for research, Msen Inc. emv@Msen.com Msen Inc., 628 Brooks, Ann Arbor MI 48103 +1 313 998 4562 (fax: 998 4563) From toaster-owner@m2xenix.psg.com Mon Mar 22 19:48:48 1993 Received: from m2xenix.psg.com by fido.wps.com (5.67/1.34) id AA00792; Mon, 22 Mar 93 19:48:39 -0800 Received: by m2xenix.psg.com (/\==/\ Smail3.1.25.1 #25.4) id ; Mon, 22 Mar 93 19:29 PST Return-Path: Received: by m2xenix.psg.com (/\==/\ Smail3.1.25.1 #25.4) id ; Mon, 22 Mar 93 19:29 PST Received: from cygnus.com by relay1.UU.NET with SMTP (5.61/UUNET-internet-primary) id AA21534; Mon, 22 Mar 93 22:29:35 -0500 Received: from localhost.cygnus.com by cygnus.com (4.1/SMI-4.1) id AA20060; Mon, 22 Mar 93 19:30:33 PST Message-Id: <9303230330.AA20060@cygnus.com> To: toaster-list@psg.com Subject: Information collection for cooperative nets Date: Mon, 22 Mar 93 19:30:33 -0800 From: gnu@cygnus.com Status: OR I think we should collect and publish information about our networks, and a handbook for people who are interested in doing their own. The information about ourselves is useful to all of us, in knowing who else is in the same boat. It's also useful in answering queries like, "Is there one of these small cheap friendly folks offering IP in *my* area?". I got such a query today (re the Arizona/NM area). The handbook should be real small and sleazy at first. Like, a list of questions to ask your IP provider, and a list of equipment known to be interesting to folks like us (with prices and contact info). IP provider war stories (or a review from our point of view) would be good. Rather than start a flame war about what text formatting standard to use, I propose that it be plain ASCII for now. Cygnus has a small FTP server which we could put up the info on. It'd be good to get it into other services like WAIS and gopher, but I don't yet know enough about either to say where or how. John From toaster-owner@m2xenix.psg.com Tue Mar 23 01:57:06 1993 Received: from m2xenix.psg.com by fido.wps.com (5.67/1.34) id AA00941; Tue, 23 Mar 93 01:57:01 -0800 Received: by m2xenix.psg.com (/\==/\ Smail3.1.25.1 #25.4) id ; Tue, 23 Mar 93 01:23 PST Return-Path: Received: by m2xenix.psg.com (/\==/\ Smail3.1.25.1 #25.4) id ; Tue, 23 Mar 93 01:23 PST Received: by fido.wps.com (5.67/1.34) id AA00889; Tue, 23 Mar 93 01:22:29 -0800 From: tomj@fido.wps.com (Tom Jennings) Message-Id: <9303230922.AA00889@fido.wps.com> Subject: Re: Information collection for cooperative nets To: jasmic!sechrest@CS.ORST.EDU Date: Tue, 23 Mar 1993 01:22:28 -0800 (PST) Cc: toaster@psg.com (toasternet mailing list) In-Reply-To: <9303230548.AA01750@ jasmic.jasmic.com > from "sechrest@CS.ORST.EDU" at Mar 22, 93 09:48:54 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL21] Content-Type: text Content-Length: 1401 Status: OR > Here is a first pass. > > Group: Corvallis Metronet Project > ... Thanks!! I'll generate something on The LIttle Garden that's simiar. I have a lot of pieces now. On einteresting thing would be to get short bio's of all members of our groups, to find out exactl ywhat it is we use it for. It would make good propaganda too I bet in a lot of cases. Speaking of propaganda -- I really think it's important to engineer our terminology and appearance. I don't mean in any dishonest way. From the "outside" it's not always clear what's going on. 'Grassroots groups and technical pioneers trying to provide communications to those who cannot afford it, are being locked out by a combination of turf-wars, profiteering, the threat of censorship and bureaucratic sluggishness, from their IP carriers.' vs. 'Some high-tech hackers and small businessmen are attempting to resell the bandwidth purchased from their service providers, who worked hard to develop what they have.' OK so my tossed off text ain't the best. Terminology is incredibly important, the words we use to describe ourselves change the way we and others will see us. Since people are going to form some image of us, we might as well have a hand in it. I'm not suggesting we trade off imagery for substance, just to be aware that it's there. -- Tom Jennings / tomj@fido.wps.com / World Power Systems / San Francisco CA From gg@well.sf.ca.us Tue Mar 23 02:31:49 1993 Received: from nkosi.well.sf.ca.us by fido.wps.com (5.67/1.34) id AA00952; Tue, 23 Mar 93 02:31:39 -0800 Received: from well.sf.ca.us by nkosi.well.sf.ca.us (5.65c/SMI-4.1/nkosi-930322-1) id AA19331; Tue, 23 Mar 1993 02:32:04 -0800 Received: by well.sf.ca.us (5.65c/SMI-4.1/well-930216-1) id AA10276; Tue, 23 Mar 1993 02:31:59 -0800 Date: Tue, 23 Mar 1993 02:31:59 -0800 From: George A. Gleason Message-Id: <199303231031.AA10276@well.sf.ca.us> To: tomj@fido.wps.com Subject: internet...! Status: OR Tom: got a copy of your form letter re internet access. I vaguely recall talking to you about our Community Dialtone project... one of our likely sites is the same as one you're working on, and preliminary indications are that internet access will definitely be in demand at that location. The phone switch will be a few thousand lines; I'm not sure what percentage of subscribers will want net access, but there will be some for sure. Some of whom will be using ISDN on our system. Anyway, it seems it would be good to start talking about possible collaboration on this. Call me at the office, my direct number is 510-644.8085; best times are 11 to 1 though I'm in most of the day and if not you can leave a message. -gg (george gleason) From toaster-owner@m2xenix.psg.com Tue Mar 23 08:02:49 1993 Received: from m2xenix.psg.com by fido.wps.com (5.67/1.34) id AA00993; Tue, 23 Mar 93 08:02:45 -0800 Received: by m2xenix.psg.com (/\==/\ Smail3.1.25.1 #25.4) id ; Tue, 23 Mar 93 06:55 PST Return-Path: Received: by m2xenix.psg.com (/\==/\ Smail3.1.25.1 #25.4) id ; Tue, 23 Mar 93 06:55 PST Received: by rain.psg.com (/\==/\ Smail3.1.25.1 #25.4) id ; Tue, 23 Mar 93 06:55 PST Message-Id: From: randy@psg.com (Randy Bush) Subject: Re: Information collection for cooperative nets To: toaster-list@psg.com (ToasterNet List) Date: Tue, 23 Mar 1993 06:55:46 -0800 (PST) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Length: 120 Status: OR The standard bumph from the CIX is on the gopher.psg.com under Netowrking Internet Marketplace CIX From judic@snyside.sunnyside.com Tue Mar 23 08:57:22 1993 Received: from snyside.sunnyside.com by fido.wps.com (5.67/1.34) id AA01002; Tue, 23 Mar 93 08:57:14 -0800 Received: from [192.147.248.83] (quark.sunnyside.com) by snyside.sunnyside.com with SMTP id AA12086 (5.65c8/IDA-1.4.4 for ); Tue, 23 Mar 1993 08:57:40 -0800 Date: Tue, 23 Mar 1993 08:57:40 -0800 Message-Id: <199303231657.AA12086@snyside.sunnyside.com> To: tomj@fido.wps.com (Tom Jennings) From: judic@snyside.sunnyside.com (Judi Clark) Subject: Re: ToasterNet conference Status: OR >Great timing on your message re: toasternet conference. Thanks. I'll go ahead with some tentative plans. Do you have any idea who might like to come so I have an idea of how big to make this? >On top of that, The Little Garden is looking for a new IP carrier. >Relations with ALternet are.. strained. Not surprising. I hear they're charging for traffic now, on top of a monthly charge. >We're meeting with BARRNET Wed. Maybe talk to Netcom too. They're smaller and not as reliable, but probably worth hearing from. And yes, the point of the conference would be to share thoughts and experiences and knowledge... >I'll gladly keep you informed of >what we do here. And I'd love to hear about things elsewhere... Thanks, please do. Also the conference will give you the opportunity to hear about things elsewhere. >Where is the listserv for communet? listserv@UVMVM.BITNET <<<<< high traffic warning... (They also have an index of back traffic, by month.) judi