From toaster-owner@m2xenix.psg.com Sat Mar 20 06:41:38 1993 Received: from m2xenix.psg.com by fido.wps.com (5.67/1.34) id AA00830; Sat, 20 Mar 93 06:41:03 -0800 Received: by m2xenix.psg.com (/\==/\ Smail3.1.25.1 #25.4) id ; Sat, 20 Mar 93 06:34 PST Return-Path: Received: by m2xenix.psg.com (/\==/\ Smail3.1.25.1 #25.4) id ; Sat, 20 Mar 93 06:34 PST Received: by rain.psg.com (/\==/\ Smail3.1.25.1 #25.4) id ; Sat, 20 Mar 93 06:34 PST Message-Id: From: randy@psg.com (Randy Bush) Subject: Re: limits To: tomj@fido.wps.com (Tom Jennings) Date: Sat, 20 Mar 1993 06:34:06 -0800 (PST) Cc: toaster-list@psg.com (ToasterNet List) In-Reply-To: <9303140812.AA00433@fido.wps.com> from "Tom Jennings" at Mar 14, 93 00:12:47 am Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Length: 1133 Status: OR > Rick said that there's notthing to talk about, hence his appripriate > (non-)response. This is I believe the current state of things. Well, I'm back from the road, and wondering if this is still the state of play. RAINet is ready to plan a T1 upgrade, and this would be a good time to consider alternative suppliers or links between TLG, RAIN, MSEN, ... John, what's been the progress? Have you priced anything? I can make some calls next week, and know a telco that's interested. What are the new folk in Austing doing for a pipe? > Randy's "Second Class citizen" observation is exaclty correct. We're > safe if we don't rock the boat, and we remain in their good graces -- > whatever that is. There has to be room for compromise, or Rick/Marty are about to lose a bunch of customers and a chunk of marketplace. How can we explore the compromise space without major non-sense? What is it we are seeking? Being AlterNet's / PSI's local distributor? National pipes with local resellers? Local franchises? Free market resellers? What's the model? What kind of models do you folk over in Deutchland and Finland have? From toaster-owner@m2xenix.psg.com Sat Mar 20 08:12:17 1993 Received: from m2xenix.psg.com by fido.wps.com (5.67/1.34) id AA00841; Sat, 20 Mar 93 08:12:11 -0800 Received: by m2xenix.psg.com (/\==/\ Smail3.1.25.1 #25.4) id ; Sat, 20 Mar 93 08:03 PST Return-Path: Received: by m2xenix.psg.com (/\==/\ Smail3.1.25.1 #25.4) id ; Sat, 20 Mar 93 08:03 PST Received: by dolphin.funet.fi id AA18573 (5.67a/IDA-1.5); Sat, 20 Mar 1993 18:03:24 +0200 Date: Sat, 20 Mar 1993 18:03:24 +0200 Message-Id: <199303201603.AA18573@dolphin.funet.fi> From: Petri Ojala To: randy@psg.com (Randy Bush) Cc: toaster-list@psg.com (ToasterNet List) In-Reply-To: Subject: Re: limits Status: OR > What kind of models do you folk over in Deutchland and Finland have? Well.. The "problem" is that we are actually the UUNET of Finland. That is not to say that we don't have any competition here but the number of Internet service providers is limited by the fact that you need international connectivity to provide services. Currently there are three instances offering Internet-access: EUnet Finland, Telecom Finland (Datanet) and FUNET. Finnish UNIX Users' Group had a extra annual meeting in December and we formed EUnet Finland Ltd that is owned by FUUG, PTT's and employees. Our major targets are in the SME business but we also have some major Finnish fortune 50 companies as customers and we try to help the private persons and very small businesses to get into the networking. For example we have some private UUCP networks as our customers and we have a very cheap deal with them. They will provide services to only private persons and bulletin boards. We are also considering to give lower fees to associations such as Greenpeace, Sexual Equality Assoc. and Finnish nature protection Assoc. Telecom Finland service is based on "customer needs". They are managing the data- and telecommunication facilities of large companies covering many cities across the country. It is very easy for them to include Internet access as part of the datacommunication services. So it's not quite right to say that there is free competition but that there are more than one service providers with different targets. Petri From toaster-owner@m2xenix.psg.com Sat Mar 20 09:03:54 1993 Received: from m2xenix.psg.com by fido.wps.com (5.67/1.34) id AA00854; Sat, 20 Mar 93 09:03:49 -0800 Received: by m2xenix.psg.com (/\==/\ Smail3.1.25.1 #25.4) id ; Sat, 20 Mar 93 08:26 PST Return-Path: Received: by m2xenix.psg.com (/\==/\ Smail3.1.25.1 #25.4) id ; Sat, 20 Mar 93 08:26 PST Received: by rain.psg.com (/\==/\ Smail3.1.25.1 #25.4) id ; Sat, 20 Mar 93 08:26 PST Message-Id: From: randy@psg.com (Randy Bush) Subject: Re: limits To: ojala@eunet.fi (Petri Ojala) Date: Sat, 20 Mar 1993 08:26:41 -0800 (PST) Cc: toaster@psg.com In-Reply-To: <199303201603.AA18573@dolphin.funet.fi> from "Petri Ojala" at Mar 20, 93 06:03:24 pm Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Length: 288 Status: OR > Well.. The "problem" is that we are actually the UUNET of Finland. Oh my God! The enemy right here! :-) So, the obvious question is how do you feel about your customers sharing and/or reselling bandwidth? Do you have a policy, or is it case by case? Has the problem even come up? From toaster-owner@m2xenix.psg.com Sat Mar 20 09:11:06 1993 Received: from m2xenix.psg.com by fido.wps.com (5.67/1.34) id AA00860; Sat, 20 Mar 93 09:11:00 -0800 Received: by m2xenix.psg.com (/\==/\ Smail3.1.25.1 #25.4) id ; Sat, 20 Mar 93 08:35 PST Return-Path: Received: by m2xenix.psg.com (/\==/\ Smail3.1.25.1 #25.4) id ; Sat, 20 Mar 93 08:35 PST Received: by dolphin.funet.fi id AA18681 (5.67a/IDA-1.5); Sat, 20 Mar 1993 18:35:45 +0200 Date: Sat, 20 Mar 1993 18:35:45 +0200 Message-Id: <199303201635.AA18681@dolphin.funet.fi> From: Petri Ojala To: randy@psg.com (Randy Bush) Cc: toaster@psg.com In-Reply-To: Subject: Re: limits Status: OR > > Well.. The "problem" is that we are actually the UUNET of Finland. > > Oh my God! The enemy right here! :-) Ok, we are the PSI of Finland ;-) > So, the obvious question is how do you feel about your customers sharing > and/or reselling bandwidth? Do you have a policy, or is it case by case? > Has the problem even come up? At the moment one could say that we are allowing reselling of UUCP services on case by case basis. We don't allow it for ordinary customers but for customers that have a special "network" status. With IP the situation gets complicated. We need quite stable and enough large customer base to pay the basic costs such as the expensive international leased line and central EUnet costs. Therefore we have to be pretty sure that we don't support organisation that is eventually our competitor. Currently we have some bulletin board systems with full Internet access. They are providing IP services to their users/customers but at the moment we don't allow them to use IP to the customer premise. I think that in the case of reselling IP bandwidth we can make a agreement that is based on the usage volume. In a small country we need to make sure that the other party is not a generic IP provider but specializes on a certain region / customer base / etc. Petri From tomj Sat Mar 20 11:14:50 1993 Received: by fido.wps.com (5.67/1.34) id AA00991; Sat, 20 Mar 93 11:14:36 -0800 From: tomj (Tom Jennings) Message-Id: <9303201914.AA00991@fido.wps.com> Subject: The current state of TLG things... To: randy@psg.com (Randy Bush) Date: Sat, 20 Mar 1993 11:14:36 -0800 (PST) Cc: tomj (Tom Jennings), gnu@cygnus.com (John Gilmore) In-Reply-To: from "Randy Bush" at Mar 20, 93 06:34:06 am X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL21] Content-Type: text Content-Length: 4520 Status: OR Randy -- John hasn't posted the latest to toaster, but I thought you ought to know. I was waiting for his cue... I'llpoke him about it. [John -- OK if this goes to toaster?] Rick finally said lake comma jump. Here's the story -- or the final fragment anyways, as I didn't get all of it. BARRnet has aparently said they'd put in writing that they would not edit/censor traffic short of a court order. They have explicit reseller pricing -- I saw the brochure. The current expert on this, Pozar, is on vacation through this weekend (he needed it :-) I talked to CR Labs, another supplier. The results shold have appeared intoaster. (Did I forget to say, BARRnet is regional.) It looks like we do have options. From TLG's point of view, it's way past time to ake phone calls... and I am, even with my limited knowledge (why let ignorange get in the way? :-) >From gnu@cygnus.com Mon Mar 15 13:39:49 1993 Received: from relay1.UU.NET by fido.wps.com (5.67/1.34) id AA01039; Mon, 15 Mar 93 13:39:43 -0800 Received: from cygnus.com by relay1.UU.NET with SMTP (5.61/UUNET-internet-primary) id AA07545; Mon, 15 Mar 93 16:40:37 -0500 Received: from localhost.cygnus.com by cygnus.com (4.1/SMI-4.1) id AA22135; Mon, 15 Mar 93 13:40:55 PST Message-Id: <9303152140.AA22135@cygnus.com> To: rick@uunet.uu.net, gnu@cygnus.com Cc: tomj@fido.wps.com Subject: Alternet service to TLG Date: Mon, 15 Mar 93 13:40:55 -0800 From: gnu@cygnus.com Status: OR Rick, We've both been busy. I still want to resolve this. In the last two weeks we have identified two competing IP networks to which we could connect without "non competition" or "no forwarding other peoples' traffic" restrictions (either on paper or "understood"). One of them, so far, has agreed to equally good protection against having our traffic censored (only after a judge rules against it). We are meeting next week with one of them. Our preference would be to continue to work with you. It's easier than switching, you give good service, and our interests align in other areas. But we have three or four potential subscribers waiting, pending resolution of our current disagreement (one is a 256K microwave link, one an extension to Santa Cruz, one a packet radio link that could be used by a variety of current and future TLG members, and the Wolfgang connection). I think your opposition to our signing up sites that "might consider buying direct Alternet service" is based on a misunderstanding. The misunderstanding is that by objecting to us competing with you, we will cease to compete with you. On the contrary, if you give us enough trouble or delay (and the amount you have given us is about two weeks from enough), we will stop feeding you money, feed it to another service provider, and will continue to compete with you. It's not that we particularly *desire* to compete with you. We're in a different market (little guys, lower reliability, more hassle, etc). In fact, I don't think Wolfgang is in your market, but you objected to us signing him up. And you worried a lot of the little guys on TLG by claiming that people on TLG can't give out free accounts to their friends, or charge people small amounts for access to their machine. These guys are on 14.4 lines behind a 56k line; they aren't going to make any discernable difference in your traffic stats, but you pissed them off anyway. If the only way that we can be your customer is to have a prickly relationship, then the best resolution is probably for us to change providers. If you are interested in resolving this issue, then call me (+1 415 903 1418) or send email. If not, all you have to do is delay; we will select another provider and let you know. John >From rick@uunet.uu.net Mon Mar 15 14:12:50 1993 Received: from rodan.UU.NET by fido.wps.com (5.67/1.34) id AA01049; Mon, 15 Mar 93 14:12:47 -0800 Received: by rodan.UU.NET (5.61/UUNET-mail-drop) id AA13051; Mon, 15 Mar 93 17:13:40 -0500 From: rick@uunet.uu.net (Rick Adams) Message-Id: <9303152213.AA13051@rodan.UU.NET> Subject: Re: Alternet service to TLG To: gnu@cygnus.com Date: Mon, 15 Mar 1993 17:13:40 -0500 (EST) Cc: rick@uunet.UU.NET, tomj@fido.wps.com In-Reply-To: <9303152140.AA22135@cygnus.com> from "gnu@cygnus.com" at Mar 15, 93 01:40:55 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL17] Content-Type: text Content-Length: 75 Status: OR Please select another provider. I wish you luck with your new endevor. -- Tom Jennings / tomj@fido.wps.com / World Power Systems / San Francisco CA From randy@rain.psg.com Sat Mar 20 11:33:42 1993 Received: from rain.psg.com by fido.wps.com (5.67/1.34) id AA01032; Sat, 20 Mar 93 11:33:37 -0800 Received: by rain.psg.com (/\==/\ Smail3.1.25.1 #25.4) id ; Sat, 20 Mar 93 11:33 PST Message-Id: From: randy@psg.com (Randy Bush) Subject: Re: The current state of TLG things... To: tomj@fido.wps.com (Tom Jennings) Date: Sat, 20 Mar 1993 11:33:19 -0800 (PST) Cc: gnu@cygnus.com (John Gilmore) In-Reply-To: <9303201914.AA00991@fido.wps.com> from "Tom Jennings" at Mar 20, 93 11:14:36 am Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Length: 1065 Status: OR > Please select another provider. Well, Rick does not waste words. > BARRnet has aparently said they'd put in writing that they would not > edit/censor traffic short of a court order. That does not say that they will advertise routing to an arbitrary network within your autonomous network. That just says you can forward mail and news. I'd say big whoopiedoo, except that PSI actually forbids it. I know the BARRnet folk. They're ok. But have smeone who understands the technical and business issues *very* carefully check out the arrangement. As I said, I will be starting to call MCI and others next week. > I talked to CR Labs, another supplier. The results shold have appeared > intoaster. That did not appear. > From TLG's point of view, it's way past time to ake phone calls. Sounds to me like you're just starting to make them. I will be as well. Let's stay in synch and make sure the info is visible, at least to TLG, RAIN, and MSEN gurus, so we can start to mutually understand the shape of the playing field. We need T1 this summer. randy From toaster-owner@m2xenix.psg.com Sat Mar 20 13:43:41 1993 Received: from m2xenix.psg.com by fido.wps.com (5.67/1.34) id AA01060; Sat, 20 Mar 93 13:43:35 -0800 Received: by m2xenix.psg.com (/\==/\ Smail3.1.25.1 #25.4) id ; Sat, 20 Mar 93 13:23 PST Return-Path: Received: by m2xenix.psg.com (/\==/\ Smail3.1.25.1 #25.4) id ; Sat, 20 Mar 93 13:23 PST Received: by garnet.msen.com (/\==/\ Smail3.1.25.1 #25.5) id ; Sat, 20 Mar 93 16:23 WET Message-Id: To: Petri Ojala Cc: randy@psg.com (Randy Bush), toaster@psg.com Subject: Re: limits In-Reply-To: Your message of Sat, 20 Mar 93 18:35:45. <199303201635.AA18681@dolphin.funet.fi> Date: Sat, 20 Mar 93 16:23:15 EST From: Edward Vielmetti Status: OR Therefore we have to be pretty sure that we don't support organisation that is eventually our competitor. This is the root of the whole problem, a market structure where other organizations hooking people up to the Internet are viewed as competitors. Hopefully you will have products and services to sell over whoever's network people happen to be connected to, and thus you provide to your customers "value added networking" quite independent of their current bandwidth supplier. Currently we have some bulletin board systems with full Internet access. They are providing IP services to their users/customers but at the moment we don't allow them to use IP to the customer premise. If they are smart they will get "unconnected" IP networks, offer thier customers IP to the customer premise and within their own internal net, and then provide wide area services via gateways and relays. --Ed From toaster-owner@m2xenix.psg.com Sat Mar 20 16:37:02 1993 Received: from m2xenix.psg.com by fido.wps.com (5.67/1.34) id AA01098; Sat, 20 Mar 93 16:36:52 -0800 Received: by m2xenix.psg.com (/\==/\ Smail3.1.25.1 #25.4) id ; Sat, 20 Mar 93 15:17 PST Return-Path: Received: by m2xenix.psg.com (/\==/\ Smail3.1.25.1 #25.4) id ; Sat, 20 Mar 93 15:17 PST Received: by netcom4.netcom.com (5.65/SMI-4.1/Netcom) id AA14111; Sat, 20 Mar 93 15:17:31 -0800 Date: Sat, 20 Mar 93 15:17:31 -0800 From: wolfgang@netcom.com (Wolfgang Henke) Message-Id: <9303202317.AA14111@netcom4.netcom.com> To: emv@msen.com, randy@psg.com Subject: Re: limits Cc: toaster@psg.com Status: OR > > This is the root of the whole problem, a market structure where other > > organizations hooking people up to the Internet are viewed as > > competitors. Hopefully you will have products and services to sell > > over whoever's network people happen to be connected to, and thus you > > provide to your customers "value added networking" quite independent > > of their current bandwidth supplier. > > I think you have a good piece of the problem. If the vendor thinks of > themself as just selling an IP pipe, then they wil be unwisely jealous of > their own customers. They will try to own too much of the infrastructure > and will thereby fail because they forget about services. > > I am a compiler (and other tools) writer by trade. Damn Fred Borland took > the money out of the compiler market. The only folk who make money there > are those who have a rich tool set and environment to go with the compiler. So who is going to be the Fred Borland in the bandwidth market? $/MIPS tumbled so will $/Mbps. Why modems? $/MIPS tumbled faster than $/Mbps. Fiber obsoletes modems. A modem reseller. Wolfgang From toaster-owner@m2xenix.psg.com Sat Mar 20 16:37:26 1993 Received: from toad.com by fido.wps.com (5.67/1.34) id AA01103; Sat, 20 Mar 93 16:37:21 -0800 Received: from m2xenix.psg.com ([147.28.0.33]) by toad.com id AA04286; Sat, 20 Mar 93 15:30:13 PST Received: by m2xenix.psg.com (/\==/\ Smail3.1.25.1 #25.4) id ; Sat, 20 Mar 93 14:26 PST Return-Path: Received: by m2xenix.psg.com (/\==/\ Smail3.1.25.1 #25.4) id ; Sat, 20 Mar 93 14:26 PST Received: by dolphin.funet.fi id AA19418 (5.67a/IDA-1.5 for toaster@psg.com); Sun, 21 Mar 1993 00:26:21 +0200 Date: Sun, 21 Mar 1993 00:26:21 +0200 Message-Id: <199303202226.AA19418@dolphin.funet.fi> From: Petri Ojala To: toaster@psg.com In-Reply-To: Subject: Re: limits Status: OR What is the current density (geographical) of Internet service providers in the US ? How much room is there for Internet service providers in a region with let's say 5-10 million people ? Petri From toaster-owner@m2xenix.psg.com Sat Mar 20 16:37:36 1993 Received: from toad.com by fido.wps.com (5.67/1.34) id AA01108; Sat, 20 Mar 93 16:37:27 -0800 Received: from m2xenix.psg.com ([147.28.0.33]) by toad.com id AA04567; Sat, 20 Mar 93 15:37:27 PST Received: by m2xenix.psg.com (/\==/\ Smail3.1.25.1 #25.4) id ; Sat, 20 Mar 93 14:44 PST Return-Path: Received: by m2xenix.psg.com (/\==/\ Smail3.1.25.1 #25.4) id ; Sat, 20 Mar 93 14:44 PST Received: by rain.psg.com (/\==/\ Smail3.1.25.1 #25.4) id ; Sat, 20 Mar 93 14:44 PST Received: by van-bc.wimsey.com (Smail3.1.28.1) id m0naCEO-0000s3C; Sat, 20 Mar 93 14:41 PST Message-Id: From: sl@wimsey.com (Stuart Lynne) Subject: Re: limits To: emv@msen.com (Edward Vielmetti) Date: Sat, 20 Mar 1993 14:41:32 -0800 (PST) Cc: ojala@eunet.fi, randy@psg.com, toaster@psg.com In-Reply-To: from "Edward Vielmetti" at Mar 20, 93 04:23:15 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL20] Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Length: 2277 Status: OR > This is the root of the whole problem, a market structure where other > organizations hooking people up to the Internet are viewed as > competitors. Hopefully you will have products and services to sell > over whoever's network people happen to be connected to, and thus you > provide to your customers "value added networking" quite independent > of their current bandwidth supplier. > > Currently we have some bulletin board systems with full Internet > access. They are providing IP services to their users/customers > but at the moment we don't allow them to use IP to the customer > premise. > > If they are smart they will get "unconnected" IP networks, offer thier > customers IP to the customer premise and within their own internal > net, and then provide wide area services via gateways and relays. Given the rapidly dropping cost of connecting and the increasing number of places you can get connected it's probably a smart idea for IP providers to concentrate on selling bandwidth and not worrying about whether or not a customer might end up trying to compete with them. If a customer want's to resell IP he will eventually find a way to do so. One interim compromise might be to only allow routing of IP packets to one IP address. I.e. I am buying 56kbps PPP connection and all of the various devices and systems on my Class C network will use the connection. But I would be willing to "resell" dialup PPP to my customers with the restriction that they would only have packets for one IP address routed. This would be adequate for personal workstations. And would give people with networks incentitive to go back to my network provider. It's highly probable that wimsey.com will move it's network connection from BCnet to UUNET Canada in the near future. Reselling PPP was one of the contentious isssues that is making us consider changing. -- Stuart Lynne ......................... UNIX Facsimile Software Wimsey Information Technologies ................... moderator biz.sco.binaries uucp login:nuucp passwd:nuucp .................... ftp.wimsey.com:~ftp/ls-lR.Z PD Software for SCO UNIX .................... ftp.wimsey.com:~ftp/pub/wimseypd 604-936-8649(voice) 604-937-7718(fax) 604-939-4782(pep) 604-939-4756(v32b) From toaster-owner@m2xenix.psg.com Sat Mar 20 16:37:42 1993 Received: from toad.com by fido.wps.com (5.67/1.34) id AA01113; Sat, 20 Mar 93 16:37:38 -0800 Received: from m2xenix.psg.com ([147.28.0.33]) by toad.com id AA02830; Sat, 20 Mar 93 14:54:20 PST Received: by m2xenix.psg.com (/\==/\ Smail3.1.25.1 #25.4) id ; Sat, 20 Mar 93 14:18 PST Return-Path: Received: by m2xenix.psg.com (/\==/\ Smail3.1.25.1 #25.4) id ; Sat, 20 Mar 93 14:18 PST Received: by rain.psg.com (/\==/\ Smail3.1.25.1 #25.4) id ; Sat, 20 Mar 93 14:17 PST Message-Id: From: randy@psg.com (Randy Bush) Subject: Re: limits To: emv@msen.com (Edward Vielmetti) Date: Sat, 20 Mar 1993 14:17:48 -0800 (PST) Cc: toaster@psg.com In-Reply-To: from "Edward Vielmetti" at Mar 20, 93 04:23:15 pm Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Length: 892 Status: OR > This is the root of the whole problem, a market structure where other > organizations hooking people up to the Internet are viewed as > competitors. Hopefully you will have products and services to sell > over whoever's network people happen to be connected to, and thus you > provide to your customers "value added networking" quite independent > of their current bandwidth supplier. I think you have a good piece of the problem. If the vendor thinks of themself as just selling an IP pipe, then they wil be unwisely jealous of their own customers. They will try to own too much of the infrastructure and will thereby fail because they forget about services. I am a compiler (and other tools) writer by trade. Damn Fred Borland took the money out of the compiler market. The only folk who make money there are those who have a rich tool set and environment to go with the compiler. From toaster-owner@m2xenix.psg.com Sat Mar 20 17:01:52 1993 Received: from m2xenix.psg.com by fido.wps.com (5.67/1.34) id AA01224; Sat, 20 Mar 93 17:01:46 -0800 Received: by m2xenix.psg.com (/\==/\ Smail3.1.25.1 #25.4) id ; Sat, 20 Mar 93 16:02 PST Return-Path: Received: by m2xenix.psg.com (/\==/\ Smail3.1.25.1 #25.4) id ; Sat, 20 Mar 93 16:02 PST Received: by garnet.msen.com (/\==/\ Smail3.1.25.1 #25.5) id ; Sat, 20 Mar 93 19:02 WET Message-Id: To: Petri Ojala Cc: toaster@psg.com Subject: Re: limits In-Reply-To: Your message of Sun, 21 Mar 93 00:26:21. <199303202226.AA19418@dolphin.funet.fi> Date: Sat, 20 Mar 93 19:02:03 EST From: Edward Vielmetti Status: OR What is the current density (geographical) of Internet service providers in the US ? How much room is there for Internet service providers in a region with let's say 5-10 million people ? Michigan is currently served by (currently has live IP connections provided by) Msen, Michnet, ANS, PSI, Alternet, Cerfnet, and some fellow in rural Michigan hooked up to Cypress. We have been approached by two organizations asking us for Internet services with the right to resell them and we had to say that we didn't have those rights to give them. Large parts of the state (>70% by area) are a long distance call away from a high speed modem Internet hookup, and several good sized but thinly populated areas do not even have local telephone service. I would guess that if Msen could/would sell franchises to our "competitors" we'd have 5-10 new service providers within 6 mo and 25 within 5 yr, more if we pushed it the way "Amway" or other network marketing firms do it. ("Sign up your neighbors as distributors and pocket a fraction of the proceeds!") Unlike most pyramid schemes the networking approach really does add value all the way "down" the chain. Edward Vielmetti, vice president for research, Msen Inc. emv@Msen.com Msen Inc., 628 Brooks, Ann Arbor MI 48103 +1 313 998 4562 (fax: 998 4563) From toaster-owner@m2xenix.psg.com Sat Mar 20 20:47:33 1993 Received: from m2xenix.psg.com by fido.wps.com (5.67/1.34) id AA01313; Sat, 20 Mar 93 20:47:25 -0800 Received: by m2xenix.psg.com (/\==/\ Smail3.1.25.1 #25.4) id ; Sat, 20 Mar 93 19:35 PST Return-Path: Received: by m2xenix.psg.com (/\==/\ Smail3.1.25.1 #25.4) id ; Sat, 20 Mar 93 19:35 PST Received: by fido.wps.com (5.67/1.34) id AA01273; Sat, 20 Mar 93 18:39:43 -0800 From: tomj@fido.wps.com (Tom Jennings) Message-Id: <9303210239.AA01273@fido.wps.com> Subject: Info on leased lines... To: toaster@psg.com Date: Sat, 20 Mar 1993 18:39:42 -0800 (PST) Cc: randy@rain.psg.com X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL21] Content-Type: text Content-Length: 2881 Status: OR [Randy, I sent this to toaster@psg.com but it never appeared...] Jack Was in town last week for the Com puters, Frredom and Privacy Conference. I showed him some of TLG and gave him all the expected propaganda. Jack is the editor of BOARDWATCH magazine, a BBS/networking rag. The 'nat't alt net" thing is a mish-mash of ideas from Gilmore and Bush and myself, about dragging FidoNet people in with us on sharing and paying for long-haul backboney data pipes, ie. getting the aggregate data quan. up as well as tip-of-the-iceberg, one-foot-in-the-door getting FidoNet people interested andinvolved in IP stuff. >From jack.rickard@boardwatch.com Fri Mar 19 11:14:26 1993 To: tomj@fido.wps.com Tom: [Edited] I have been doing a bit of thinking and looking about regarding your concept of a national alternate network for bulletin boards. Found some very interesting things through a friend at a long distance company - ACI in Csprings. The long distance market for 56kb leased lines is going begging. The LD carriers have a lot of different types of customers, but ACI would treat me as a carrier for the purposes of a network like this and is willing to experiment. The striking thing is that I could actually throw a leased 56KB line from Denver to San Francisco for LESS than I can to GOLDEN COLORADO. There seems to be a couple of reasons for this. A local line runs between $400 and $700 per month. But LD carriers actually get these loops for $87 monthly. The long haul to San Francisco is $310.10 per month - it is about 947 air miles. So a dedicated 56KB link from my office to yours would run $310.10 plus $87 in Denver and $87 or thereabouts in San Francisco or $484 per month. I find that surprisingly low. Other cities he quoted: Denver San Diego $538.19 Denver Chicago $305.24 Denver St. Louis $283.10 Denver Seattle $323.06 Denver Los Angeles $289.04 Denver Dallas $258.80 These prices again do not reflect the roughly $175 we have to pay for local loops on the two ends. This is really quite comparable to what a local Fidonet network pays on a monthly basis for long distance to a backbone site. Reaching the east coast is harder because ACI is primarily based in the west, so I gather it would be a bit more expensive, but doable. I haven't a clue what to do with this information, but a national network could be set up for about $500 per city per month. Ben Cunningham in Nashville just did an ISDN session with Aquila BBS in Chicago at 38,400 using Hayes ISDN adapters, so 56KB lines may not make much sense if ISDN gets off the ground. But an alternet IP network linking cities in the U.S. looks rather feasible if 56KB lines would handle the traffic. Just interesting information. Jack Rickard -- Tom Jennings / tomj@fido.wps.com / World Power Systems / San Francisco CA From sisyphos.owl.de!martin@easix.GUN.de Sat Mar 20 22:38:53 1993 Received: from [192.109.159.1] by fido.wps.com (5.67/1.34) id AA01330; Sat, 20 Mar 93 22:38:34 -0800 Received: by easix.GUN.de (Smail3.1.28.1) from sisyphos.owl.de with bsmtp id ; Sun, 21 Mar 93 07:40 GMT Received: by sisyphos.owl.de (Smail3.1.28.1 #3) id m0naEdP-000d4NC; Sun, 21 Mar 93 00:15 MET Message-Id: From: martin@sisyphos.owl.de (Martin Husemann) Subject: Re: limits To: randy@psg.com Date: Sun, 21 Mar 1993 00:15:31 -0100 (MET) Cc: tomj@fido.wps.com, toaster-list@psg.com In-Reply-To: from "randy@psg.com" at Mar 20, 93 08:34:06 am X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL21] Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Content-Length: 2206 Status: OR Hello! > What kind of models do you folk over in Deutchland and Finland have? There are three IP providers: - EUnet: the german Eunet was a project at University of Dortmund, but has incorporated a few months ago. With this change they had to rise prises dramatically. - XLink: a project of University of Karlsruhe. They have quite low starter prices for custommers with limited traffic (15 MB per month). - DFN e.V. (Deutscher Forschungs-Netz Verein): they used to have only Universities as custommers. DFN founded a closed group in Datex-P (the X.25 network of Telekom) and therefor is available everywhere in Germany at constant prices. This leads to a second Point: communication rates are VERY high in Germany. ISDN is still not available everywhere (not even in the former west-germany). Custommers of EUnet or XLink have to pay nearly the same price to telekom as to their provider. Only a few big cities have a POP (point of presence) of one of the providers. Private users get special prices from EUnet and XLink, but nowadays don't deal with them directly: there are two organisations doing that for them: IN (Individual Network, in@individual.net) and SubNet (subnet@sub.net). SubNet has a contract only with XLink, IN with all three providers. These contracts allow "regular" custommers to let IN or SubNet Members use their connectivity. As most Universities in Germany are Member of DFN, most IN Members can sign an agreement with their local university and share their unused bandwidth. The only problem at that point is to make the university WANT to share their bandwidth... If there is a POP nearby, we can use that as well. POP's do want to share their bandwidth ;-) As now means, methods and know how becomes available, I am sure the necessary infrastructure will follow, so IN may become a sub-provider one day. Martin (speaking just for myself - of course) BTW: could someone give a short summary of the situation in the us? We don't know most names mentioned in discussions here and don't know your technical standards as well. -- "Dank Windows-aehnlicher Oberflaeche ist UnixWare sehr leicht zu bedienen." c't 3/93, S. 30 From emv@garnet.msen.com Sat Mar 20 23:39:30 1993 Received: from garnet.msen.com by fido.wps.com (5.67/1.34) id AA01339; Sat, 20 Mar 93 23:39:24 -0800 Received: by garnet.msen.com (/\==/\ Smail3.1.25.1 #25.5) id ; Sun, 21 Mar 93 02:38 WET Message-Id: To: tomj@fido.wps.com (Tom Jennings) Cc: toaster@psg.com, randy@rain.psg.com, jack.rickard@boardwatch.com Subject: Re: Info on leased lines... In-Reply-To: Your message of Sat, 20 Mar 93 18:39:42. <9303210239.AA01273@fido.wps.com> Date: Sun, 21 Mar 93 02:38:04 EST From: Edward Vielmetti Status: OR Here are the prices we just got from WilTel. Ann Arbor - Santa Clara: $7732/mo + $2200 install for a T1. ($6900 IXC + $840 local loop) $3367/mo + $2200 install for 256K. ($2400 IXC + $840 local loop) Ann Arbor - Grand Rapids: $570/mo + $1350 install for 56K Ann Arbor - Lansing: $536/mo + $1350 install for 56K ($350 of that is local loop) I think they offered to throw in the install for free tho that's not on my fax. The Grand Rapids and Lansing quotes are for Msen expanding within Michigan, the Santa Clara quote is part of the process of figuring out how we connect up to the CIX. Edward Vielmetti, vice president for research, Msen Inc. emv@Msen.com Msen Inc., 628 Brooks, Ann Arbor MI 48103 +1 313 998 4562 (fax: 998 4563) From toaster-owner@m2xenix.psg.com Sun Mar 21 15:57:11 1993 Received: from m2xenix.psg.com by fido.wps.com (5.67/1.34) id AA00158; Sun, 21 Mar 93 15:57:03 -0800 Received: by m2xenix.psg.com (/\==/\ Smail3.1.25.1 #25.4) id ; Sun, 21 Mar 93 15:46 PST Return-Path: Received: by m2xenix.psg.com (/\==/\ Smail3.1.25.1 #25.4) id ; Sun, 21 Mar 93 15:46 PST Received: by rain.psg.com (/\==/\ Smail3.1.25.1 #25.4) id ; Sun, 21 Mar 93 15:46 PST Message-Id: From: randy@psg.com (Randy Bush) Subject: Re: Alternative Carriers To: sechrest@jasper.cs.orst.edu (John Sechrest) Date: Sun, 21 Mar 1993 15:46:20 -0800 (PST) Cc: toaster-list@psg.com (ToasterNet List) In-Reply-To: <9303212328.AA04343@research.CS.ORST.EDU> from "sechrest@frisby.cs.orst.edu" at Mar 21, 93 03:28:11 pm Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Length: 2152 Status: OR [ I am Cc:ing toaster@psg.com, as this discussion warrants it. Jon is in Corvallis, home of OSU, about 80 miles South of Portland. They are in the early organizing phases. ] NWnet, and the other regionals who either woke up too late or have yet to wake up, may have gotten desperate enough to negotiate. Beware of their AUPs preventing commercial use. We should make a little list of what to ask your potential supplier: o Does your, or your upstream's, AUP prevent all the uses we plan? o Will you advertise all out networks to the CIX and all out NSFNET approved networks to the NSFNET? o Will you limit the hosts, sites, networks, users we hook up? o Do you limit to and from whom we may pass on data? o ... You saw what AlterNet said to TLG, yes? Essentially, Rick is dead set against serious redistribution, although he will allow a little (e.g. four first class sites, other than my own, in RAINet). >> Get your wire there and pay $10,000 per year. > Where is there? CIX West is in the Bay Area. > we will be paying close attention to what you do. I think we're will be having a gettogether next weekend. Ask Alan Batie, batie@agora.rain.com, who is arranging it. We would love to have you folk up. The ostensible purpose of the meeting is to meet the folk at Multnomah library, but conversation varies widely and is informal. > If there is a way we can send the $10K to you instead of to NWnet > that might be interesting. In the case of joing with us, it wqould be more the case of how much it would cost to get the wire here. Our financial structure is unique, as my site is subsidized and I pass it on. But we are slowly preparing to move to a less sugar-daddy approach, but we have two years to do so. > Do you have plans about joining together all the small networks for a > switched 56 backbone? It looks as if that is what we will have to do to be considered first class citizens. And, if that's what it takes, we'll do it. TLG's got cash and a large network (although he started after we, he has more fertile ground). Ed's got some cash. The Austin folk are just waking up. NY is still asleep. From randy@rain.psg.com Sun Mar 21 16:37:30 1993 Received: from rain.psg.com by fido.wps.com (5.67/1.34) id AA00165; Sun, 21 Mar 93 16:37:25 -0800 Received: by rain.psg.com (/\==/\ Smail3.1.25.1 #25.4) id ; Sun, 21 Mar 93 16:37 PST Message-Id: From: randy@psg.com (Randy Bush) Subject: Re: should move To: nick@dreamy.demon.co.uk Date: Sun, 21 Mar 1993 16:37:16 -0800 (PST) Cc: tomj@fido.wps.com (Tom Jennings), ww3@zeus.fasttax.com (Wynn Wagner), rickm@gethen.com (Rick Moore) In-Reply-To: <282@dreamy.demon.co.uk> from "Nick Reid" at Mar 21, 93 09:50:53 pm Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Length: 1309 Status: OR [ Nick and I were talking, and I thought you others would be amused. ] One of the nodelists strongest points is that the node's data phone number is in it. FidoNet is the only technology which allows the freedom to connect to whomever you want and no one can stop you, either intentionally or because some central facilities are down. A second attribute is its correctness. No, it's not perfect, but it's far better than the uucp maps, and even a wee bit more accurate than the DNS. This is because someone local is responsible for ensuring correctness. Unfortunately, these local folk are starting to lose the vision of what FidoNet is and their role in it, and have become lax about reliability and conformance. Then again, we have not given them good tools to easily test reliability and conformance, have we? Above the NC, the hierarchy is a big boo boo (spoken like a true NC, eh?). Because RCs and ZCs have no real work to do, they start to invent it. Also, the structure for adjudication gives them a very negative view of the world. So they think about power issues, and the positions attract power thinkers. The results are obvious. Outside Z1, the RCs could perform a real role in routing, as the regional structure approximates the cost structure. Unfortunately, they don't seem to do so. From toaster-owner@m2xenix.psg.com Sun Mar 21 23:05:22 1993 Received: from toad.com by fido.wps.com (5.67/1.34) id AA00115; Sun, 21 Mar 93 23:05:12 -0800 Received: from m2xenix.psg.com ([147.28.0.33]) by toad.com id AA07676; Sun, 21 Mar 93 22:30:37 PST Received: by m2xenix.psg.com (/\==/\ Smail3.1.25.1 #25.4) id ; Sun, 21 Mar 93 22:17 PST Return-Path: Received: by m2xenix.psg.com (/\==/\ Smail3.1.25.1 #25.4) id ; Sun, 21 Mar 93 22:17 PST Received: by agora.rain.com (Smail3.1.26.7 #19) id m0nafoz-0001cZC; Sun, 21 Mar 93 22:17 PST Message-Id: From: batie@agora.rain.com (Alan Batie) Subject: Re: Alternative Carriers To: randy@psg.com (Randy Bush) Date: Sun, 21 Mar 93 22:17:12 PST Cc: sechrest@jasper.cs.orst.edu, toaster-list@psg.com In-Reply-To: from "Randy Bush" at Mar 21, 93 03:46:20 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4beta PL3] Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Length: 617 Status: OR > We should make a little list of what to ask > your potential supplier: > o Do you limit to and from whom we may pass on data? FYI: While I was at USENIX in January, I explained our situation and asked the rep in the CERFnet booth about their policy, and he said he didn't think that would be a problem with them. They have a rather limit set of POPs, however, I believe. -- Alan Batie \ batie@agora.rain.com \ Sometimes they fool you +1 503 452-0960 / \ by walking upright... 45 28 59 N / 122 43 20 W / 440' MSL / \ From toaster-owner@m2xenix.psg.com Sun Mar 21 23:05:29 1993 Received: from toad.com by fido.wps.com (5.67/1.34) id AA00120; Sun, 21 Mar 93 23:05:23 -0800 Received: from m2xenix.psg.com ([147.28.0.33]) by toad.com id AA05709; Sun, 21 Mar 93 21:44:28 PST Received: by m2xenix.psg.com (/\==/\ Smail3.1.25.1 #25.4) id ; Sun, 21 Mar 93 21:28 PST Return-Path: Received: by m2xenix.psg.com (/\==/\ Smail3.1.25.1 #25.4) id ; Sun, 21 Mar 93 21:28 PST Received: by CS.ORST.EDU (15.11/1.15) id AA07098; Mon, 22 Mar 93 00:28:51 est Received: from jasmic with uucp; Sun, 21 Mar 93 21:23:16 Received: from localhost by jasmic.jasmic.com (NeXT-1.0 (From Sendmail 5.52)/NeXT-2.0) id AA00574; Sun, 21 Mar 93 21:23:16 PST Message-Id: <9303220523.AA00574@ jasmic.jasmic.com > To: randy@psg.com (Randy Bush) Subject: Re: Alternative Carriers Cc: toaster-list@psg.com (ToasterNet List) In-Reply-To: Your message of Sun, 21 Mar 93 15:46:20 PST. Date: Sun, 21 Mar 93 21:23:09 +48000 From: (John Sechrest) Status: OR -------- % NWnet, and the other regionals who either woke up too late or have yet to % wake up, may have gotten desperate enough to negotiate. Beware of their % AUPs preventing commercial use. We should make a little list of what to ask % your potential supplier: % o Does your, or your upstream's, AUP prevent all the uses we plan? % o Will you advertise all out networks to the CIX and all out NSFNET % approved networks to the NSFNET? % o Will you limit the hosts, sites, networks, users we hook up? % o Do you limit to and from whom we may pass on data? % o ... This is an interesting set of questions. I have not asked them. I am getting less than enthusiastic response from PSI. NWnet is starting to warm up and Alternet seems to be side stepping the issue of auxilary networks. I have the feeling we will have to do a formal RFP to get all the facts in one place. I would be interested to see what the complete list of questions might be. % You saw what AlterNet said to TLG, yes? Essentially, Rick is dead set % against serious redistribution, although he will allow a little (e.g. four % first class sites, other than my own, in RAINet). Our structure that we are planning is a central Hub Router and a start to all the subscribers. I think the thing that makes us slightly different is that initially we can afford to all be in the same IP space and just use one C class network. I have not asked about routing other networks. % > If there is a way we can send the $10K to you instead of to NWnet % > that might be interesting. % % In the case of joing with us, it wqould be more the case of how much it % would cost to get the wire here. Our financial structure is unique, as my % site is subsidized and I pass it on. But we are slowly preparing to move to % a less sugar-daddy approach, but we have two years to do so. It looks like $10K to CIX is about the same as $15K to NWnet as a commercial network. If the 56k lines to out of state are really treated as carriers, it might be cheaper to just get a direct CIX connection. % > Do you have plans about joining together all the small networks for a % > switched 56 backbone? % % It looks as if that is what we will have to do to be considered first class % citizens. And, if that's what it takes, we'll do it. TLG's got cash and a % large network (although he started after we, he has more fertile ground). % Ed's got some cash. The Austin folk are just waking up. NY is still % asleep. It looks like the price in the range of what a small set of businesses can put together. We are looking at trying to find a way to make this work as a service to the community. Where we have OSU, HP , city government and county government working with small businesses to have a shared network. However, the large organizations already have NWnet or Barnet connections and the governments are not sure what to do with networks. This leaves most of the interest in the small businesses and individuals. If we can get 10 Businesses to committ, we can afford to run the basic network. We are starting to focus now on a demonstration project to set up a local network without the connection the internet at large. We would set up a mail gateway, but skip the full IP access until we had paid some Mid-level provider. The big thing holding us back is the capital costs. If only I could find a grant to get the ball rolling. But that seems hard to do. ----- John Sechrest . Internet: sechrest@jasmic.uucp Jasmic Systems . UUCP: hp-pcd!orstcs!jasmic!sechrest 2140 SW 49th . Corvallis Oregon 97333 . Worst: sechrest%jasmic.uucp@cs.orst.edu (503) 758-6430 . From judic@snyside.sunnyside.com Sun Mar 21 23:58:46 1993 Received: from snyside.sunnyside.com by fido.wps.com (5.67/1.34) id AA00302; Sun, 21 Mar 93 23:58:39 -0800 Received: from [192.147.248.83] (quark.sunnyside.com) by snyside.sunnyside.com with SMTP id AA00515 (5.65c8/IDA-1.4.4 for ); Sun, 21 Mar 1993 23:58:30 -0800 Date: Sun, 21 Mar 1993 23:58:30 -0800 Message-Id: <199303220758.AA00515@snyside.sunnyside.com> To: tomj@fido.wps.com, pozar@toad.com, gnu@toad.com, well!coyote From: judic@sunnyside.com (Judi Clark) X-Sender: judic@snyside.sunnyside.com Subject: ToasterNet conference Status: OR Perhaps you've heard of Communet, a listserv with heavy traffic, talk about all the little nets cropping up all over. There was brief mention and interest expressed about some of the greater bay area groups being interested in having a meeting to talk about what's going on. After a few suggestions, one of the people suggested this. >I'd like to see the following at a meeting: > >1. case histories - stories of existing nets >2. presentation by the Free-Net people >3. legal issues, the "legal issues for sysops" tutorial from > CPF conf in SF would be great >4. How to link elected reps to the net >5. update on Clinton admin plans to put more data online, the new > net backbone, etc etc. >6. presentation by Pavel Curtis (of Xerox Parc who also did a > talk at DIAC in Berkeley last year) on text based virtual realities > (MUDs) in social networks. >7. mentoring and confronting abuse and flame wars: the quest for a good > signal to noise ratio in discussions >8. organizational models >9. a panel discussion of "who pays" would be great > Anyone interested in this idea? Is it worth persuing? I can organize something if you help with speakers, suggestions, format options... things that would make the meeting of greatest benefit and interest. judi From judic@snyside.sunnyside.com Sun Mar 21 23:58:46 1993 Received: from snyside.sunnyside.com by fido.wps.com (5.67/1.34) id AA00302; Sun, 21 Mar 93 23:58:39 -0800 Received: from [192.147.248.83] (quark.sunnyside.com) by snyside.sunnyside.com with SMTP id AA00515 (5.65c8/IDA-1.4.4 for ); Sun, 21 Mar 1993 23:58:30 -0800 Date: Sun, 21 Mar 1993 23:58:30 -0800 Message-Id: <199303220758.AA00515@snyside.sunnyside.com> To: tomj@fido.wps.com, pozar@toad.com, gnu@toad.com, well!coyote From: judic@sunnyside.com (Judi Clark) X-Sender: judic@snyside.sunnyside.com Subject: ToasterNet conference Status: OR Perhaps you've heard of Communet, a listserv with heavy traffic, talk about all the little nets cropping up all over. There was brief mention and interest expressed about some of the greater bay area groups being interested in having a meeting to talk about what's going on. After a few suggestions, one of the people suggested this. >I'd like to see the following at a meeting: > >1. case histories - stories of existing nets >2. presentation by the Free-Net people >3. legal issues, the "legal issues for sysops" tutorial from > CPF conf in SF would be great >4. How to link elected reps to the net >5. update on Clinton admin plans to put more data online, the new > net backbone, etc etc. >6. presentation by Pavel Curtis (of Xerox Parc who also did a > talk at DIAC in Berkeley last year) on text based virtual realities > (MUDs) in social networks. >7. mentoring and confronting abuse and flame wars: the quest for a good > signal to noise ratio in discussions >8. organizational models >9. a panel discussion of "who pays" would be great > Anyone interested in this idea? Is it worth persuing? I can organize something if you help with speakers, suggestions, format options... things that would make the meeting of greatest benefit and interest. judi From toaster-owner@m2xenix.psg.com Mon Mar 22 09:46:42 1993 Received: from m2xenix.psg.com by fido.wps.com (5.67/1.34) id AA00545; Mon, 22 Mar 93 09:46:38 -0800 Received: by m2xenix.psg.com (/\==/\ Smail3.1.25.1 #25.4) id ; Mon, 22 Mar 93 08:18 PST Return-Path: Received: by m2xenix.psg.com (/\==/\ Smail3.1.25.1 #25.4) id ; Mon, 22 Mar 93 08:18 PST Received: from cygnus.com by relay1.UU.NET with SMTP (5.61/UUNET-internet-primary) id AA14049; Mon, 22 Mar 93 11:18:36 -0500 Received: from localhost.cygnus.com by cygnus.com (4.1/SMI-4.1) id AA20366; Mon, 22 Mar 93 08:19:29 PST Message-Id: <9303221619.AA20366@cygnus.com> To: jasmic!sechrest@CS.ORST.EDU (John Sechrest) Cc: toaster-list@psg.com (ToasterNet List), gnu@cygnus.com Subject: Re: Alternative Carriers In-Reply-To: Your message of "Sun, 21 Mar 93 21:23:09." <9303220523.AA00574@ jasmic.jasmic.com > Date: Mon, 22 Mar 93 08:19:28 -0800 From: gnu@cygnus.com Status: OR > The big thing holding us back is the capital costs. These have dropped by close to half in the last year. Livingston now offers a 56K router in the $2300 range, and a T1 router for a few hundred more. They are on the Internet and provide patches and new versions via FTP. They were responsive when we had initial trouble with their router, and it has a number of innovations (easy config from a Unix machine, no hooking up terminals to it). I am hoping for leased lines with ISDN interfaces, to provide the next jump down in capital costs. With each end of a 56K line costing $1000 to install (here in PacBell country), and each end requiring a $600 DSU/CSU, ISDN has to be cheaper. John From pozar@kumr.lns.com Mon Mar 22 17:52:26 1993 Received: from kumr.lns.com by fido.wps.com (5.67/1.34) id AA00767; Mon, 22 Mar 93 17:52:21 -0800 Received: by kumr.lns.com (/\==/\ Smail3.1.25.1 #25.3) id ; Mon, 22 Mar 93 17:52 PST Message-Id: From: pozar@kumr.lns.com (Tim Pozar) Subject: Re: BARRNET meeting... To: tomj@fido.wps.com (Tom Jennings) Date: Mon, 22 Mar 1993 17:52:36 -0800 (PST) Cc: gnu@toad.com In-Reply-To: <9303230143.AA00739@fido.wps.com> from "Tom Jennings" at Mar 22, 93 05:43:07 pm Content-Type: text Content-Length: 380 Status: OR Tom Jennings wrote: > ... is Wed. night at Stanford, John reminds me. Going down there? Can I > catch a ride? Sure... It's 2pm at Pine Hall at Stanford. Tim -- Internet: pozar@kumr.lns.com FidoNet: Tim Pozar @ 1:125/555 Snail: Tim Pozar / KKSF / 77 Maiden Lane / San Francisco CA 94108 / USA POTS: +1 415 788 2022 Radio: KC6GNJ / KAE6247 From toaster-owner@m2xenix.psg.com Mon Mar 22 19:48:48 1993 Received: from m2xenix.psg.com by fido.wps.com (5.67/1.34) id AA00792; Mon, 22 Mar 93 19:48:39 -0800 Received: by m2xenix.psg.com (/\==/\ Smail3.1.25.1 #25.4) id ; Mon, 22 Mar 93 19:29 PST Return-Path: Received: by m2xenix.psg.com (/\==/\ Smail3.1.25.1 #25.4) id ; Mon, 22 Mar 93 19:29 PST Received: from cygnus.com by relay1.UU.NET with SMTP (5.61/UUNET-internet-primary) id AA21534; Mon, 22 Mar 93 22:29:35 -0500 Received: from localhost.cygnus.com by cygnus.com (4.1/SMI-4.1) id AA20060; Mon, 22 Mar 93 19:30:33 PST Message-Id: <9303230330.AA20060@cygnus.com> To: toaster-list@psg.com Subject: Information collection for cooperative nets Date: Mon, 22 Mar 93 19:30:33 -0800 From: gnu@cygnus.com Status: OR I think we should collect and publish information about our networks, and a handbook for people who are interested in doing their own. The information about ourselves is useful to all of us, in knowing who else is in the same boat. It's also useful in answering queries like, "Is there one of these small cheap friendly folks offering IP in *my* area?". I got such a query today (re the Arizona/NM area). The handbook should be real small and sleazy at first. Like, a list of questions to ask your IP provider, and a list of equipment known to be interesting to folks like us (with prices and contact info). IP provider war stories (or a review from our point of view) would be good. Rather than start a flame war about what text formatting standard to use, I propose that it be plain ASCII for now. Cygnus has a small FTP server which we could put up the info on. It'd be good to get it into other services like WAIS and gopher, but I don't yet know enough about either to say where or how. John From toaster-owner@m2xenix.psg.com Mon Mar 22 21:06:04 1993 Received: from m2xenix.psg.com by fido.wps.com (5.67/1.34) id AA00815; Mon, 22 Mar 93 21:06:00 -0800 Received: by m2xenix.psg.com (/\==/\ Smail3.1.25.1 #25.4) id ; Mon, 22 Mar 93 20:46 PST Return-Path: Received: by m2xenix.psg.com (/\==/\ Smail3.1.25.1 #25.4) id ; Mon, 22 Mar 93 20:46 PST Received: by CS.ORST.EDU (15.11/1.15) id AA10230; Mon, 22 Mar 93 23:46:20 est Received: from jasmic with uucp; Mon, 22 Mar 93 20:38:36 Received: from localhost by jasmic.jasmic.com (NeXT-1.0 (From Sendmail 5.52)/NeXT-2.0) id AA01572; Mon, 22 Mar 93 20:38:36 PST Message-Id: <9303230438.AA01572@ jasmic.jasmic.com > To: gnu@cygnus.com Subject: Re: Information collection for cooperative nets Cc: toaster-list@psg.com In-Reply-To: Your message of Mon, 22 Mar 93 19:30:33 PST. <9303230330.AA20060@cygnus.com> Date: Mon, 22 Mar 93 20:38:32 +48000 From: (John Sechrest) Status: OR -------- % Cygnus has a small FTP server which we could put up the info on. % It'd be good to get it into other services like WAIS and gopher, but % I don't yet know enough about either to say where or how. If you want, I would be glad to put it in my gopher server on gopher.cs.orst.edu. We can also wais it up, if that makes sense and put it on the gopher system. ----- John Sechrest . Internet: sechrest@jasmic.uucp Jasmic Systems . UUCP: hp-pcd!orstcs!jasmic!sechrest 2140 SW 49th . Corvallis Oregon 97333 . Worst: sechrest%jasmic.uucp@cs.orst.edu (503) 758-6430 . From toaster-owner@m2xenix.psg.com Tue Mar 23 00:47:58 1993 Received: from m2xenix.psg.com by fido.wps.com (5.67/1.34) id AA00854; Tue, 23 Mar 93 00:47:46 -0800 Received: by m2xenix.psg.com (/\==/\ Smail3.1.25.1 #25.4) id ; Tue, 23 Mar 93 00:14 PST Return-Path: Received: by m2xenix.psg.com (/\==/\ Smail3.1.25.1 #25.4) id ; Tue, 23 Mar 93 00:13 PST Received: by CS.ORST.EDU (15.11/1.15) id AA14189; Tue, 23 Mar 93 00:13:47 pst Received: from jasmic with uucp; Mon, 22 Mar 93 21:48:58 Received: from localhost by jasmic.jasmic.com (NeXT-1.0 (From Sendmail 5.52)/NeXT-2.0) id AA01750; Mon, 22 Mar 93 21:48:58 PST Message-Id: <9303230548.AA01750@ jasmic.jasmic.com > To: gnu@cygnus.com Subject: Re: Information collection for cooperative nets Cc: toaster-list@psg.com In-Reply-To: Your message of Mon, 22 Mar 93 19:30:33 PST. <9303230330.AA20060@cygnus.com> Date: Mon, 22 Mar 93 21:48:54 +48000 From: (John Sechrest) Status: OR -------- % I think we should collect and publish information about our networks, % and a handbook for people who are interested in doing their own. I like this idea. % The handbook should be real small and sleazy at first. Like, a list % of questions to ask your IP provider, and a list of equipment known to % be interesting to folks like us (with prices and contact info). IP % provider war stories (or a review from our point of view) would be % good. Here is a first pass. Group: Corvallis Metronet Project Location: Corvallis Oregon, USA Updated Date: 3/22/93 Contact: John Sechrest Address: 2140 SW 49th St City: Corvallis State: Oregon Zip: 97333 Phone: (503) 758-6430 Email: sechrest@jasmic.com Status: Just starting Abstract: The Corvallis Metronet Project is an effort to establish an IP network in Linn Benton Counties to provide a local focus for developing community. The effort is aimed at connecting, local small businesses, city government, county government to the Internet. The large businesses and University already have connections. Equipment: Currently, running UUCP with the Univeristy as a hub. Pricing equipment to create an IP network. IP Service Provider: Currently none. For more information: There is a working group that is doing the leg work to establish the metronet. They can be reached at: mwg@cs.orst.edu. There is an informational list for people who are interested in the progress and status of the metronet: metronet@cs.orst.edu ----- John Sechrest . Internet: sechrest@jasmic.uucp Jasmic Systems . UUCP: hp-pcd!orstcs!jasmic!sechrest 2140 SW 49th . Corvallis Oregon 97333 . Worst: sechrest%jasmic.uucp@cs.orst.edu (503) 758-6430 . From toaster-owner@m2xenix.psg.com Tue Mar 23 00:59:43 1993 Received: from m2xenix.psg.com by fido.wps.com (5.67/1.34) id AA00875; Tue, 23 Mar 93 00:59:33 -0800 Received: by m2xenix.psg.com (/\==/\ Smail3.1.25.1 #25.4) id ; Tue, 23 Mar 93 00:14 PST Return-Path: Received: by m2xenix.psg.com (/\==/\ Smail3.1.25.1 #25.4) id ; Tue, 23 Mar 93 00:14 PST Received: by hardy.u.washington.edu (5.65/UW-NDC Revision: 2.22 ) id AA28652; Tue, 23 Mar 93 00:14:21 -0800 Date: Tue, 23 Mar 1993 00:05:46 -0800 (PST) From: adam fast Subject: Re: Information collection for cooperative nets To: gnu@cygnus.com Cc: toaster-list@psg.com In-Reply-To: <9303230330.AA20060@cygnus.com> Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=us-ascii Status: OR john, toaster-l folks, yes yes yes please put out this info packet/manual on your nets & how you put them up, hints and warnings, recipes, etc!!!! i work with a group here in seattle, wa that is trying to do something similar to what RAINet does and other little IP networks do-- provide affordable Internet access to low-income folks (individuals, npo's, small businesses). (we are called Seattle Community Network.) but we know nothing! (less than nothing, actually, since we all have lots of preconceptions; and we need our bubbles burst so we can get on with the business of providing cheap and usable service!) yes yes make that sleazy manual! anything is better than the info we have now. (even tho i subscribe to the emailbox-flooding communet-list, there is very little practical info out there-- you have thousands of diverse people all over the world who would be very grateful for some practical guide to providing cheap ip service to people who need it most, those who can't afford it now.) cheers, adam adamfast@u.washington.edu From wolfgang@wsrcc.com Tue Mar 23 17:45:17 1993 Received: from wsrcc.com by fido.wps.com (5.67/1.34) id AA01343; Tue, 23 Mar 93 17:45:09 -0800 Received: by wsrcc.com id AA24279 (5.65c/IDA-1.4.4 for tomj@fido.wps.com (Tom Jennings)); Tue, 23 Mar 1993 17:39:28 -0800 Date: Tue, 23 Mar 1993 17:39:28 -0800 From: Wolfgang Rupprecht Message-Id: <199303240139.AA24279@wsrcc.com> To: tomj@fido.wps.com (Tom Jennings) Subject: A slight umm.. Alter-cation... In-Reply-To: <9303222019.AA00570@fido.wps.com> References: <9303222019.AA00570@fido.wps.com> Organization: Wolfgang S. Rupprecht Computer Consulting, Fremont CA Status: OR Tom, I'm just catching up on the Alternet thing. > In fact, I don't think Wolfgang is in your market, but you objected to > us signing him up. What exactly is this about? Did Rick try to get me bumped out of TLG???? -wolfgang --- Wolfgang Rupprecht wolfgang@wsrcc.com (or) decwrl!wsrcc!wolfgang IP: [140.174.88.1] 39469 Gallaudet Drive, Fremont, CA 94538-4511 From wolfgang@wsrcc.com Tue Mar 23 17:45:17 1993 Received: from wsrcc.com by fido.wps.com (5.67/1.34) id AA01343; Tue, 23 Mar 93 17:45:09 -0800 Received: by wsrcc.com id AA24279 (5.65c/IDA-1.4.4 for tomj@fido.wps.com (Tom Jennings)); Tue, 23 Mar 1993 17:39:28 -0800 Date: Tue, 23 Mar 1993 17:39:28 -0800 From: Wolfgang Rupprecht Message-Id: <199303240139.AA24279@wsrcc.com> To: tomj@fido.wps.com (Tom Jennings) Subject: A slight umm.. Alter-cation... In-Reply-To: <9303222019.AA00570@fido.wps.com> References: <9303222019.AA00570@fido.wps.com> Organization: Wolfgang S. Rupprecht Computer Consulting, Fremont CA Status: OR Tom, I'm just catching up on the Alternet thing. > In fact, I don't think Wolfgang is in your market, but you objected to > us signing him up. What exactly is this about? Did Rick try to get me bumped out of TLG???? -wolfgang --- Wolfgang Rupprecht wolfgang@wsrcc.com (or) decwrl!wsrcc!wolfgang IP: [140.174.88.1] 39469 Gallaudet Drive, Fremont, CA 94538-4511 From toaster-owner@m2xenix.psg.com Tue Mar 23 20:10:36 1993 Received: from m2xenix.psg.com by fido.wps.com (5.67/1.34) id AA01425; Tue, 23 Mar 93 20:10:26 -0800 Received: by m2xenix.psg.com (/\==/\ Smail3.1.25.1 #25.4) id ; Tue, 23 Mar 93 16:35 PST Return-Path: Received: by m2xenix.psg.com (/\==/\ Smail3.1.25.1 #25.4) id ; Tue, 23 Mar 93 16:35 PST Received: by rip.psg.com (Smail3.1.28.1 #1) id m0nbJRa-000300C; Tue, 23 Mar 93 16:35 PST Message-Id: From: randy@psg.com (Randy Bush) Subject: archive of toasternet overviews To: toaster@psg.com (ToasterNet List) Date: Tue, 23 Mar 1993 16:35:45 -0800 (PST) Content-Type: text Content-Length: 406 Status: OR John, thanks for kicking it off. I have started to archive this stuff on gopher.psg.com under Networking Metronets Could folk please put nice subject lines? E.g. I hacked them to: Corvallis Metronet Project 93.3.23 RAINet - Portland Oregon 93.3.24 BTW, I have a pretty complete archive of toaster@psg.com. I could extract the interesting stuff into a gopher file if folk wish. randy From pozar@kumr.lns.com Tue Mar 23 21:04:07 1993 Received: from kumr.lns.com by fido.wps.com (5.67/1.34) id AA01470; Tue, 23 Mar 93 21:04:01 -0800 Received: by kumr.lns.com (/\==/\ Smail3.1.25.1 #25.3) id ; Tue, 23 Mar 93 21:04 PST Message-Id: From: pozar@kumr.lns.com (Tim Pozar) Subject: Re: ToasterNet conference (fwd) To: tomj@fido.wps.com (Tom Jennings) Date: Tue, 23 Mar 1993 21:04:43 -0800 (PST) Cc: toaster@psg.com In-Reply-To: <9303220817.AA00320@fido.wps.com> from "Tom Jennings" at Mar 22, 93 00:17:19 am Content-Type: text Content-Length: 934 Status: OR Tom Jennings wrote: > [Umm, Judy just sent m this cold... I had been talking to her re: TLG > and such... and the desire to have a local, physical meeting of people > interested in starting or joining toasternets. > > Judy was 1/2 of the main organizers of the Computers Freedom and Privacy > conference, and all around dynamo first class.... savvy and astute] BTW... I just talked to Judy today. She is going to contact Steve Cisler regarding getting a hall or conference room at Apple to have a meeting in a month or two. I suggested some thing a little less involved like an informal meeting at Apple for 2 or 3 hours. Apple is also a good mid-point for folks in San Francisco and in Santa Cruz. Tim --- Internet: pozar@kumr.lns.com FidoNet: Tim Pozar @ 1:125/555 Snail: Tim Pozar / KKSF / 77 Maiden Lane / San Francisco CA 94108 / USA POTS: +1 415 788 2022 Radio: KC6GNJ / KAE6247 From pozar@kumr.lns.com Tue Mar 23 21:11:22 1993 Received: from kumr.lns.com by fido.wps.com (5.67/1.34) id AA01476; Tue, 23 Mar 93 21:11:16 -0800 Received: by kumr.lns.com (/\==/\ Smail3.1.25.1 #25.3) id ; Tue, 23 Mar 93 21:12 PST Message-Id: From: pozar@kumr.lns.com (Tim Pozar) Subject: Re: A slight umm.. Alter-cation... To: tomj@fido.wps.com (Tom Jennings) Date: Tue, 23 Mar 1993 21:12:01 -0800 (PST) Cc: toaster@psg.com In-Reply-To: <9303222019.AA00570@fido.wps.com> from "Tom Jennings" at Mar 22, 93 12:19:12 pm Content-Type: text Content-Length: 806 Status: OR Tom Jennings wrote: > > > Well, here's the statii of Alternet/Little Garden relations these > days... > > From: rick@uunet.uu.net (Rick Adams) > Subject: Re: Alternet service to TLG > To: gnu@cygnus.com > Date: Mon, 15 Mar 1993 17:13:40 -0500 (EST) > Cc: rick@uunet.UU.NET, tomj@fido.wps.com > > Please select another provider. > > I wish you luck with your new endevor. And in fact we are doing just that. Tom, John and I are meeting with a provider tomorrow to hammer out the points and possibly brain-storm some new ones. Stay tuned for some possibly interesting news... Tim -- Internet: pozar@kumr.lns.com FidoNet: Tim Pozar @ 1:125/555 Snail: Tim Pozar / KKSF / 77 Maiden Lane / San Francisco CA 94108 / USA POTS: +1 415 788 2022 Radio: KC6GNJ / KAE6247