From ejs@BA.TIS.COM Thu Jul 1 12:50:17 1993 Received: from BA.TIS.COM by fido.wps.com (5.67/9999.1) id AA02879; Thu, 1 Jul 93 12:50:12 -0700 Received: from saffron.ba.tis.com by BA.TIS.COM (4.1/SUN-5.64) id AA09784; Thu, 1 Jul 93 12:54:27 PDT Received: by saffron.ba.tis.com (4.1/SMI-4.1) id AA06802; Thu, 1 Jul 93 12:54:25 PDT Date: Thu, 1 Jul 93 12:54:25 PDT From: ejs@BA.TIS.COM (Edward John Sebes) Message-Id: <9307011954.AA06802@saffron.ba.tis.com> To: tomj@wps.com Subject: Re: TLG meeting -- LOCATION MOVED Cc: crocker@TIS.COM, rich@BA.TIS.COM Status: OR Tom, Annoying personal business has arisen, and I can't make tonight's meeting. Please give my regards to everybody. Also, I'd like to take you up on your previous offer to keep me informed about developments. I will probably want to chat with you tomorrow. To let you know where TIS stands, we are confused. Last we heard, TLG was separating from Alternet. Now, we hear from Rick Adams that John Gilmore has asked Alternet to add Cygnus to the mbone-- and this without notifying TIS, or anyone else on TLG, to my knowledge. Obviously, this is annoying, but particularly because going mbone will likely double TLG's Alternet costs. Clearly, this has TLG cost ramifications that would be of concern to all. Personally, I don't care whether this gets discussed at tonight's meeting or not. As the end bill-payer for TLG, this is something TIS needs to get worked out regardless of other TLGers' involvement. Nevertheless, it is something that you may care to raise if you think that folks will be concerned. The same goes for the issue that this mbone business may finally provoke Rick Adams to get aggresive about limiting or shutting down TLG. Again, this seems to be something of potential interest to the group. Certainly, we have begun making contingency plans in case John Gilmore hoses up this situation. Given the fact that this meeting comes at a time when John Gilmore has once again roiled up the situation, I really do appreciate whatever reportage you can provide. Sincerely, John Sebes Trusted Information Systems From tomj Thu Jul 1 13:35:00 1993 Received: by fido.wps.com (5.67/9999.1) id AA02940; Thu, 1 Jul 93 13:34:46 -0700 From: tomj (Tom Jennings) Message-Id: <9307012034.AA02940@wps.com> Subject: John and Rick have a little tea To: ejs@BA.TIS.COM (Edward John Sebes) Date: Thu, 1 Jul 1993 13:34:45 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: <9307011954.AA06802@saffron.ba.tis.com> from "Edward John Sebes" at Jul 1, 93 12:54:25 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL21] Content-Type: text Content-Length: 4901 Status: OR > Now, we hear from Rick Adams that John > Gilmore has asked Alternet to add Cygnus to the mbone-- and this without > notifying TIS, or anyone else on TLG, to my knowledge. Obviously, this > is annoying, but particularly because going mbone will likely double > TLG's Alternet costs. Clearly, this has TLG cost ramifications that > would be of concern to all. I contemplated tal;king to you last week, but I thought I would wait until after the meetings yesterday then tonight. Here's the shortm form, which I'll gladly expand upon later. Basically there's another net in Portland in some ways similar to TLG, RAINnet, though they exist on a totally different economic base (NSF grants, etc). Since the "find another supplier" exchange in Feb (?), we've been exploring many ifferent models. This will get expanded tonight, and I'll talk to you voice tomorrow, Long story short -- we were seriously exploring becoming a "regional" network. Randy Bush, aong with John Klensin of MIT, principal in RAINnet, came down from Portland to meet with us so we could work out: goals, expecations, economics, etc ad infinitum. Suffice to say in this message that between the economics, the non-monetary investment (IETF, meetings, publications, etc) a RAIN/TLG regional is not practical. Never mind the upcoming APR94 fiasco(s). During this, we worked out why ALternet is as it is, in part. Which information not forthcoming from Rick, it all blew up. What we worked out to approach Alternet with, was a compromise model of a "TLG" network that could expand partly as we wish, and would compensate Alternet and what would appear to be very profitable to Alternet. (Between you and me -- John did not come up with this, Randy did -- who is just as obnoxious as Rick, and on very good terms. Unlike John, Randy though brusque (whew! understatement!) is a straght-shooter. Rick and Randy go "way back".) I am amused that you heard about "John contacting Rick" so soon, as John said he'd contact (???) the perosn Rick hired, rather than Rick. Which would seem to me, to be a bit too close for comfort. So much for silent negotiations! :-) The economic model we worked out (basically: we pay $2000/mo now for up to 128K bandwidth, and a steepening (not linear) curve after htat up to $5000 for 1.0MB, would assure that our load presented to Alternet would pay for what's used, plus profit for ALternet. This is with, or without, a line to Portland. (RAINnet is currently an Alternet customer.) > As the end bill-payer for TLG, this is something TIS needs to get > worked out regardless of other TLGers' involvement. Nevertheless, it is > something that you may care to raise if you think that folks will be > concerned. We discussed amongst ourselves TIS' relationship. What I said was, that as far as I knew TIS wanted a reliable, no-hassle, reasonably-priced reasonable-performance network connection. And that I specifically did not ask nor hint nor even approach whether TIS was "with us or agin' us", and would not (still won't :-) What I did do was, mention that the new scheme would have some other body paying the bill and collecting the checks and all that sor tof nonsense, and TIS will likely decide when the time comes what to do. This is NOT a discussion item for tonight, except in the most general of terms if someone asks. When asked in the past, I replied with some reasonable expansion of what I said in the previous paragraph about "what I assume they want is...". > The same goes for the issue that this mbone business may finally provoke > Rick Adams to get aggresive about limiting or shutting down TLG. Again, > this seems to be something of potential interest to the group. Certainly, > we have begun making contingency plans in case John Gilmore hoses up this > situation. Well. I know nothing of any plans involving the mbone. If John's involved I am not aware of it. It may be some other Cygnus people. I would guess that since it's Cygnus and not one of the contentious leafs htat Rick is pissed at, that it'll just up the bill fro Cygnus, worst case (well maybe worst case is swamping the line and t'ing TIS off :-) (But that's not my dep't :-) Someone must have said to me, 'may you live in interesting times', when I wasn't listening :-) PS: all of the last three months was learnign about the economics, politics, topology and generally disgusting decor in the telephone companies' worlds. Tim Pozar now has an amazing knowledge of lines, POPs, co-location and who costs what, in case you ever need such things... This has been an interesting project in it's own right, and I just hope that John doesn't terminally piss off Rick today. I wish he'd let Randy do the talking. Armed with the knwoledge of the playing field, I think the new proposal for Rick is actually reasonable. -- Tom Jennings -- tomj@wps.com -- World Power Systems -- San Francisco, Calif. From ejs@BA.TIS.COM Thu Jul 1 13:58:25 1993 Received: from BA.TIS.COM by fido.wps.com (5.67/9999.1) id AA03048; Thu, 1 Jul 93 13:58:19 -0700 Received: from saffron.ba.tis.com by BA.TIS.COM (4.1/SUN-5.64) id AA10037; Thu, 1 Jul 93 14:02:36 PDT Received: by saffron.ba.tis.com (4.1/SMI-4.1) id AA07309; Thu, 1 Jul 93 14:02:33 PDT Date: Thu, 1 Jul 93 14:02:33 PDT From: ejs@BA.TIS.COM (Edward John Sebes) Message-Id: <9307012102.AA07309@saffron.ba.tis.com> To: tomj@wps.com Subject: Re: John and Rick have a little tea Status: OR Tom, Thanks for the informative note! I really look forward to talking with you after the meeting tonight. > Well. I know nothing of any plans involving the mbone. If John's involved I am not aware of it. It may be some other Cygnus people. Well, I can say for sure that that Rick says that it was John asking about the mbone, and that as a result, he is getting peeved. > I just hope that John doesn't terminally piss off Rick today. There seems to be a very good chance of that right now, although I suspect that John simply won't understand that. Sounds like John isn't telling any one person about all his plans, which I find worrisome. Hence the contingency planning. Also, I should say that the word seems somehow to be getting about that TLG is in danger. I have heard from entirely separate (from TLG, TIS, etc.) folks that they were thinking about joining TLG, but had heard that there is some doubt about how stable it is. So, I have a distinct feeling that things are not what they seem and that tonight will probably afford less than total enlightenment. Good luck. John Sebes From tomj Thu Jul 1 14:05:52 1993 Received: by fido.wps.com (5.67/9999.1) id AA03077; Thu, 1 Jul 93 14:05:40 -0700 From: tomj (Tom Jennings) Message-Id: <9307012105.AA03077@wps.com> Subject: Re: John and Rick have a little tea To: ejs@BA.TIS.COM (Edward John Sebes) Date: Thu, 1 Jul 1993 14:05:38 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: <9307012102.AA07309@saffron.ba.tis.com> from "Edward John Sebes" at Jul 1, 93 02:02:33 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL21] Content-Type: text Content-Length: 1000 Status: OR > Well, I can say for sure that that Rick says that it was John asking > about the mbone, and that as a result, he is getting peeved. I am going to ask him about this, and why he didn't mention it to us. > say that the word seems somehow to be getting about that TLG is > in danger. I have heard from entirely separate (from TLG, TIS, etc.) > folks that they were thinking about joining TLG, but had heard that > there is some doubt about how stable it is. So, I have a distinct > feeling that things are not what they seem and that tonight will > probably afford less than total enlightenment. Good luck. Well this part doesn't worry me too much; a lot of this is because when people ask "how can I get a 56K line" etc I have to tell them, until we determine our new arrangement and topology, I can't give you an answer. 9.6K over voice lines, no prob. Not to minimize the real problems, of which we have many. -- Tom Jennings -- tomj@wps.com -- World Power Systems -- San Francisco, Calif.