Call to Jim Couch 18 Mar 93
CR Labs
Box 326
Larkspur CA 94977

jc@crl.com
381-2800 voice
381-9578 fax

Talked to Jim Couch. I outlined TLG, and told him we are looking at new
providers. That we wanted basically to buy "wholesale" and take care of
connecting our own members; ie. we want raw bandwidth.

I gave him our topology, and soft-pedaled TIS' in or out issue. I
concentrated on Cygnus as representative at one end of our spectrum, and
the low-speed SLIP members (eg. me) as the other. Most fo the
discussions concerning price and arrangements concerned the low end.

I told him about the Alternet --> TIS --> Cygnus --> Palo Alto and San
Fran, that the 56K to SF is potentially movable, and otherwise
rearrangeable depending on what's available.


He considers our membership arrangement as re-selling, and considers it
direct competition -- he said so. CRL would want $80 for every member we
connect (assuming we already have a deal for N existing members). He
said -- twice -- "this is what providers consider normal" (paraphrase).
I told him I understood the grey area problem, ie. we come close to
being resellers, but that our scale is much lower.

It took him a few minutes to graps what we're doing, ie. $70 total end
cost. He stumbled when he heard that. Really.

He was hard to talk to, as a person. He wouldn't let me get a word in
edge-wise, he kept talking over me, and trying to anticipate what Iwas
going to say/ask. It was close to 1700.

Though I admit I have limited experience and knowledge of IP service
providers, I get the feeling that CRL is thinking the current status quo
is going to persist. He didn't talk like the representative of a CARRIER
but of a SERVICE. I did not push the distinction, though it's obviously
important.

He did say that they're willing to make custom arrangements. Close to
the end of the call, he said they might consider giving us a 56K line
that we could put a Portmaster on and divvy up as we see fit.

He will send me a four-color-glossy soon.


Fillin:

They only work with Telebit modems. He said, "do you use Telebits, or
some of those other cheap ones". I told him what we're doing. 'Nuff
said. 

They can provice CSU/DSUs for about $200 he said. They have some Big
Deal with Livingston, and can get great prices. I didn't get around to
asking.

They don't go through PacBell for leased line stuff. They have some
other supplier for long-haul. I didn't understand.

Long distance: they have some arrangement with WilTel (sp?), some fiber
comapny he claims is national. I did not know enough of the finer issues
re: talking to other networks like NSFnet, CIX, etc so I didn't ask any
further. (4-color glossy due in the mail soon anyhoo.)

AUP: I asked what their deal was, and he said they have no problem with
commercial traffic. I intentionally did not mention BARRNET saying they
won't censor short of a court order, I figured Jim was uncomfortable
enough with me as it was. (I think he think's we're a bit ahem unusual
and demanding. We are certainly not your ordinary IP commercial
customer.)