From gnu@cygnus.com Mon Mar 15 13:39:49 1993 Received: from relay1.UU.NET by fido.wps.com (5.67/1.34) id AA01039; Mon, 15 Mar 93 13:39:43 -0800 Received: from cygnus.com by relay1.UU.NET with SMTP (5.61/UUNET-internet-primary) id AA07545; Mon, 15 Mar 93 16:40:37 -0500 Received: from localhost.cygnus.com by cygnus.com (4.1/SMI-4.1) id AA22135; Mon, 15 Mar 93 13:40:55 PST Message-Id: <9303152140.AA22135@cygnus.com> To: rick@uunet.uu.net, gnu@cygnus.com Cc: tomj@fido.wps.com Subject: Alternet service to TLG Date: Mon, 15 Mar 93 13:40:55 -0800 From: gnu@cygnus.com Status: OR Rick, We've both been busy. I still want to resolve this. In the last two weeks we have identified two competing IP networks to which we could connect without "non competition" or "no forwarding other peoples' traffic" restrictions (either on paper or "understood"). One of them, so far, has agreed to equally good protection against having our traffic censored (only after a judge rules against it). We are meeting next week with one of them. Our preference would be to continue to work with you. It's easier than switching, you give good service, and our interests align in other areas. But we have three or four potential subscribers waiting, pending resolution of our current disagreement (one is a 256K microwave link, one an extension to Santa Cruz, one a packet radio link that could be used by a variety of current and future TLG members, and the Wolfgang connection). I think your opposition to our signing up sites that "might consider buying direct Alternet service" is based on a misunderstanding. The misunderstanding is that by objecting to us competing with you, we will cease to compete with you. On the contrary, if you give us enough trouble or delay (and the amount you have given us is about two weeks from enough), we will stop feeding you money, feed it to another service provider, and will continue to compete with you. It's not that we particularly *desire* to compete with you. We're in a different market (little guys, lower reliability, more hassle, etc). In fact, I don't think Wolfgang is in your market, but you objected to us signing him up. And you worried a lot of the little guys on TLG by claiming that people on TLG can't give out free accounts to their friends, or charge people small amounts for access to their machine. These guys are on 14.4 lines behind a 56k line; they aren't going to make any discernable difference in your traffic stats, but you pissed them off anyway. If the only way that we can be your customer is to have a prickly relationship, then the best resolution is probably for us to change providers. If you are interested in resolving this issue, then call me (+1 415 903 1418) or send email. If not, all you have to do is delay; we will select another provider and let you know. John From rick@uunet.uu.net Mon Mar 15 14:12:50 1993 Received: from rodan.UU.NET by fido.wps.com (5.67/1.34) id AA01049; Mon, 15 Mar 93 14:12:47 -0800 Received: by rodan.UU.NET (5.61/UUNET-mail-drop) id AA13051; Mon, 15 Mar 93 17:13:40 -0500 From: rick@uunet.uu.net (Rick Adams) Message-Id: <9303152213.AA13051@rodan.UU.NET> Subject: Re: Alternet service to TLG To: gnu@cygnus.com Date: Mon, 15 Mar 1993 17:13:40 -0500 (EST) Cc: rick@uunet.UU.NET, tomj@fido.wps.com In-Reply-To: <9303152140.AA22135@cygnus.com> from "gnu@cygnus.com" at Mar 15, 93 01:40:55 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL17] Content-Type: text Content-Length: 75 Status: OR Please select another provider. I wish you luck with your new endevor. From rick@uunet.uu.net Thu Oct 21 13:51:26 1993 Received: from rodan.UU.NET by fido.wps.com (5.67/wps.com-hackery) id AA03407; Thu, 21 Oct 93 13:50:56 -0700 Received: by rodan.UU.NET (5.61/UUNET-mail-drop) id AA12642; Thu, 21 Oct 93 16:50:42 -0400 From: rick@uunet.uu.net (Rick Adams) Message-Id: <9310212050.AA12642@rodan.UU.NET> Subject: AlterNet service cancelled as of 12/31/93 To: the-little-garden@cygnus.com, tomj@wps.com (Tom Jennings) Date: Thu, 21 Oct 1993 16:50:40 -0400 (EDT) Cc: crocker@tis.com, alternet@uunet.UU.NET (Alternet Staff) X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL17] Content-Type: text Content-Length: 5974 Status: OR As you well know, we do not permit this type of resale you describe in your advertising. We have discussed this repeatedly in the past and you have not listened. We're tired of playing your games. Your IP connection will be terminated on 12/31/93. If we determine that you are sending traffic onto our network via an undisclosed subnet of your Class B network, your entire network connection will be IMMEDIATELY terminated. Good luck finding another provider... ---rick ----------------------------------------------------------- THE LITTLE GARDEN -- IP SERVICES -- October 93 The Little Garden (TLG) is a cooperative buyers club providing Internet connectivity in the greater San Francisco Bay Area. TLG is the California component of RGNet, Inc (RAIN Net + Little Garden Net = Rainy/Garden Net). Our prices are the cost of connectivity plus our reasonably low overhead. In exchange for these low prices, we expect members to be somewhat self-sufficient technically. Many members become involved in the operation of TLG, though this is not necessary. We have Points of Presence (POPs) in San Francisco, Mountain View and Palo Alto. RAIN Net is based in Portland Oregon. We have an affiliate in Santa Cruz providing similar service. Contact information is at the end of this datasheet. TLG provides high-quality, reliable basic IP connectivity via full-time SLIP or PPP, primary and/or secondary Domain Name Service (DNS), and in some cases, IP address space. We provide you with the help necessary to get online. We don't provide shell accounts, shared, part-time IP, etc. TLG places no restrictions on content or use of your connection, including reselling, "back door" hosts, etc. You are of course required to comply with any AUPs of any networks you communicate with or through (e.g., local ordinances) and of course any applicable laws. Compliance with this is your responsibility. PRICES: 56K SERVICE PRICES: One-time installation fee (non-refundable) . . . . . . $400. Monthly connection fee . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . $325. T1 SERVICE PRICES: One-time installation fee (non-refundable) . . . . . . $500. Monthly connection fee . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . $800. Each member must provide their own leased lines, CSU/DSU pair, and a 56K or T1 capable connection to their system (such as a router). Each member must also provide a standalone router at the TLG end or pay for a fraction of a multi-port router. OTHER HIGH-SPEED SERVICE: We are more than willing to work out fair prices on other types of connections at other speeds, such as 64Kb/s ISDN, 200Kb/s radio, etc. LOW-SPEED DIAL-UP SERVICE PRICES: TLG offers modem-based full-time IP using telephone lines and dialup-type modems. Additional information is provided near the end of this datasheet. Ask for further details. One-time installation fee (non-refundable) . . . . . . $250. Monthly connection fee . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . $70. The following list gives estimates of goods and services that the member must cover. (Probable telco one-time installation fees, total . . $70. (Probable monthly telco charges, total . . . . . . . . $24. (Pair of v32bis/v42bis modems, retail . . . . . . . . $400. PAYMENT DETAILS: One-time installation fees and member-supplied hardware must be provided before TLG initiates the connection. Members are invoiced for monthly connect fees three months at a time. Net 15 days, unless otherwise arranged. Initial billing starts with the first full week following the connection completion, or three weeks from start of the installation, whichever comes latest. POSSIBLE TLG/MEMBER RESOURCE SHARING: Under certain conditions, TLG may be willing to pay for the leased line to the customer's site, and a portion of the connect fee, if TLG can install a new POP at the member's site. Depending on various factors, this could significantly lower the cost to the member for IP services. As more sites are connected to this new POP, the member housing the POP would receive a portion of each additional connection fee, effectively paying for bandwidth used. SOME DETAILS ON LOW-SPEED SERVICES: TLG offers modem-based full-time IP using telephone lines and dialup-type modems. For this class of service, we rely on the "local call" phenomenon of basic Residential Telephone Service, and modern high-speed modems. Members provide a pair of modems, preferably v32/v42 or faster, one for each end of the link. (Members retain ownership of this equipment.) Please ask before purchasing modems, as some are better than others, and some utterly unusable for continuous IP service. Members also must install and pay for two phone lines, one at their own site and one at ours. All billing must be handled by the member, and bills sent to the members address. (Exception: at the TLG end we may handle billing/installation and bill you through without markup, due to building logistics.) (NOTE: if our POPs are not reachable by your "local call" area, you may be able to install an additional third line at an intermediate site to use Call Forwarding to reach our POPs. We have members in Redwood City and Berkeley doing this.) Unless otherwise arranged, we provide you with your own 8-bit subnet which you may use to register your own domain with the NIC. (We will help with this.) Aggregating our numerous smaller, "low speed" networks under one Class B network makes for easier administration and greater reliability as presented to the Internet. - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - CONTACT INFORMATION: The Little Garden (COMPLETE INFORMATION PENDING) email to: tomj@wps.com (Tom Jennings) RAINnet: email to: rain-admin@rain.com SANTA CRUZ, CALIFORNIA: Santa Cruz Community Internet (scruz-net) 903 Pacific Ave. #203-A Santa Cruz, CA 95060 (408) 426-6771 [temporary] email to: matthew@echo.com, queue@echo.com, garlick@echo.com From tomj Thu Oct 21 14:10:31 1993 Received: by fido.wps.com (5.67/wps.com-hackery) id AA03510; Thu, 21 Oct 93 14:10:13 -0700 From: tomj (Tom Jennings) Message-Id: <9310212110.AA03510@wps.com> Subject: Re: AlterNet service cancelled as of 12/31/93 To: rick@uunet.uu.net (Rick Adams) Date: Thu, 21 Oct 1993 14:10:12 +0000 (WET DST) Cc: the-little-garden@cygnus.com, tomj@wps.com, crocker@tis.com, alternet@uunet.UU.NET In-Reply-To: <9310212050.AA12642@rodan.UU.NET> from "Rick Adams" at Oct 21, 93 04:50:40 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL21] Content-Type: text Content-Length: 1147 Status: OR > As you well know, we do not permit this type of resale you > describe in your advertising. We have discussed this repeatedly > in the past and you have not listened. I am terribly sorry there has been such a large misunderstanding. Let me state plainly: we (TLG) will not be selling IP from Alternet in any way. As of 2-5 Nov we will be completely disconnected from ALternet. Under no circumstances will we be moving additional traffic over the Cygnus/TIS/Alternet connection. I was told by TIS personnel that they were in constant contact with Alternet, and had informed Alternet that Cygnus et al would be disconnecting shortly. I will gladly tell you of our specific plans if you'd like. I hope it's clear that we have no problems with you nor Alternet, and thatin our opinion Alternet's sverice was top notch; and that any disagreements we've had have all been due to essentially, growing pains. Should I call you on the phone and talk details? I'll be in later this afternoon (I''m off-site now) and would be happy to tell you our specific plans. -- Tom Jennings -- tomj@wps.com -- World Power Systems -- San Francisco, Calif. From crocker@TIS.COM Thu Oct 21 16:14:15 1993 Received: from RELAY.TIS.COM by fido.wps.com (5.67/wps.com-hackery) id AA03969; Thu, 21 Oct 93 16:14:11 -0700 Received: by relay.tis.com; id AA05144; Thu, 21 Oct 93 19:11:45 EDT Received: from tis.com(192.33.112.100) by relay via smap (V1.0mjr) id sma005138; Thu Oct 21 19:11:15 1993 Received: from HAPPY.TIS.COM by TIS.COM (4.1/SUN-5.64) id AA23776; Thu, 21 Oct 93 19:13:29 EDT Message-Id: <9310212313.AA23776@TIS.COM> To: tomj@wps.com (Tom Jennings) Cc: rick@uunet.uu.net (Rick Adams), sebes@TIS.COM, alternet@uunet.uu.net Subject: Re: AlterNet service cancelled as of 12/31/93 In-Reply-To: Your message of "Thu, 21 Oct 93 14:10:12 -0000." <9310212110.AA03510@wps.com> Date: Thu, 21 Oct 93 19:13:12 +0100 From: Stephen D Crocker Status: OR Tom and Rick, It's possible I didn't communicate definitive details. If so, I apologize. Nonetheless I think everyone has the same model: TLG will be disconnected from TIS and will proceed on its own. I think the scheduled disconnect is the end of the first week of November. Rick's 12/31 deadline is actually considerably more generous than I have insisted on. Note that I narrowed the address list for this message in case it needs discussion. Later I will send a message to the entire list; got to run. Steve